The impact of DSLR APSC Phase Out on Underwater Photography

[Interceptor121 765]

With Nikon no longer producing APSC DLSR and Canon releasing the last edition of their APSC with 90D things may take a more complex turn

My reflection on this piece

https://interceptor121.com/2020/03/17/the-impact-of-apsc-dslr-end-on-underwater-photography/

Edited March 17, 2020 by Interceptor121

[Akoni 11]

Woah...let's hope you are a fair bit off the mark here. I'm still hoping that Nikon at least, will continue on with DSLR's for a while. I mean a D500 refresh would be a juicy camera and I'm fairly sure we'll see a reboot of the D850. Of course, if people 'will them' to die off by words and action, then it would likely happen. Personally, I still prefer a DSLR over any MILC I've tried to date and Nikon's idea of adding more video functionality to DSLR's is a good thing.

[Interceptor121 765]

No Nikon has already announced last year there won’t be any follow up to the D500

Currently they have 4 APSC DSLR in range and no future product announcements

Nikon is adding video to the Z full frame mirror less nothing to DSLR

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Akoni 11]

Nikon is an odd company, so it wouldn't surprise me if they do or do not update the D500, no matter what has been said. It would however be a shame if they were to drop it altogether.

[Interceptor121 765]

Nikon is an odd company, so it wouldn't surprise me if they do or do not update the D500, no matter what has been said. It would however be a shame if they were to drop it altogether.

The last APSC DSLR was released in 2017. Last announcements Z6 Z7 Z50
Only full frame will continue for now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bill1946 16]

What are great APSC alternatives to Nikon?

[Interceptor121 765]

What are great APSC alternatives to Nikon?

DSLR only canon who released the 90D last year and that was it for DSLR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oneyellowtang 95]

@Interceptor121 I want to give you the benefit of the doubt on the following statement:

"The other issue is that Canon and Nikon are also behind in terms of autofocus compared to MFT, while they already are matching or beating Sony."

Pls explain what you intended by this... because if you are suggesting that there is a MFT out there that has better AF then a D500+60mm I would suggest you need a broader perspective.

What were you intending to communicate?

Also - what Nikon suggested was that the Dxx line wouldn't see additional innovation (no more models), with the intention being that Nikon's next Z release will get photographers most or all of the way to a D500 mirrorless equivalent. They are expecting Nikon customers to make that jump and stay loyal to the brand. If they get any indication that is not the case, they will release "one last" Dxx body (D560?) to bridge the gap.

[hyp 111]

Yeah, the AF remark also startled me. I'm a huge fan of micro four thirds, but AF is usually not considered their biggest strength. I know from your last article that you are basing this on the low light performance in S-AF, but there is a lot more to good AF systems than contrast detect S-AF. That said, I have neither experience with modern MFT bodies (newest is GX80/GX8) nor with the current competitors, so maybe my perceptions are wrong?

[Interceptor121 765]

@oneyellowtang

Canon and Nikon mirrorless Autofocus is behind MFT and for sports also Sony

Not talking about current DSLR APSC as that is a phase out range


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited March 18, 2020 by Interceptor121

[Architeuthis 155]

The problem is, that an endless number of reviews/tests exists, but it is difficult to rely on the scores/verdicts when one wants to draw conclusion for real life. This is not only because the testers have usually a strong "conflicts of interest", but also the test conditions are different, not to speak about different lenses, when AF tests are performed (in addition, for us UW-photographers, our "real-life" is just a small facette of the spectrum). As a results.e.g. Sony mirrorless cameras are regarded by some to have worst AF of all , while others think they have the best AF of all cameras...

To me it seems impossible to draw conclusions without doing side-by-side testing on my own. Therefore the opinion of people that have several cameras and can directly compare them from their own experience seems to me the really valuable information...

I find the test results of the latest Canon DSLR camera D90 remarkable: The reviewers find that AF in the mirrorless mode works already better than in the regular "mirror-mode": https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-90d-review/8

I had the opportunity to talk to several DSLR UW-photographers during a UW workshop last autumn: under delicate conditions (e.g. low light in caves), many used the "live-view" mode of their D850 and D500s, i.e. they use them in the mirrorless mode. Of course, AF will be worse compared to a dedicated mirrorless body...

The improvement in AF of mirrorless cameras, together with the need for liveview mode makes me believe Massimo is right when he says the DSLR lines will be soon discontinued...

 

Wolfgang

tin realwith all these

[Interceptor121 765]

Yeah, the AF remark also startled me. I'm a huge fan of micro four thirds, but AF is usually not considered their biggest strength. I know from your last article that you are basing this on the low light performance in S-AF, but there is a lot more to good AF systems than contrast detect S-AF. That said, I have neither experience with modern MFT bodies (newest is GX80/GX8) nor with the current competitors, so maybe my perceptions are wrong?

Single AF is a measure of shutter lag that is the most important parameter to get a shot underwater
Majority or AF feature tracking etc are relevant for burst shooting wildlife and sports not for underwater that is single shots
For those type of shots you need low shutter lag and good predictive focus for macro it is a different set of requirements


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Interceptor121 765]

The problem is, that an endless number of reviews/tests exists, but it is difficult to rely on the scores/verdicts when one wants to draw conclusion for real life. This is not only because the testers have usually a strong "conflicts of interest", but also the test conditions are different, not to speak about different lenses, when AF tests are performed (in addition, for us UW-photographers, our "real-life" is just a small facette of the spectrum). As a results.e.g. Sony mirrorless cameras are regarded by some to have worst AF of all , while others think they have the best AF of all cameras...

To me it seems impossible to draw conclusions without doing side-by-side testing on my own. Therefore the opinion of people that have several cameras and can directly compare them from their own experience seems to me the really valuable information...

I find the test results of the latest Canon DSLR camera D90 remarkable: The reviewers find that AF in the mirrorless mode works already better than in the regular "mirror-mode": https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-90d-review/8

I had the opportunity to talk to several DSLR UW-photographers during a UW workshop last autumn: under delicate conditions (e.g. low light in caves), many used the "live-view" mode of their D850 and D500s, i.e. they use them in the mirrorless mode. Of course, AF will be worse compared to a dedicated mirrorless body...

The improvement in AF of mirrorless cameras, together with the need for liveview mode makes me believe Massimo is right when he says the DSLR lines will be soon discontinued...

 

Wolfgang

tin realwith all these

Wolfgang am not the one saying APSC DSLR are being discontinued the manufactures are saying that

Canon has stopped making new DSLR sensor models and sony stopped APSC DSLR too so any new APSC model would need to rely on stock of existing sensors

Canon has also stopped full frame DSLR development but Sony is still making them for Nikon

 

I believe reviews are not useful for our use case however some performance measurements are

Shutter lag, low light AF low contrast are comparable

Shutter burst rate, hit rate on birds are not

Likewise a test showing a sony camera perfectly focussing on a basketball player in burst or video mode means nothing to us

So you need to read between the lines for what matters

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Interceptor121 765]

Yeah, the AF remark also startled me. I'm a huge fan of micro four thirds, but AF is usually not considered their biggest strength. I know from your last article that you are basing this on the low light performance in S-AF, but there is a lot more to good AF systems than contrast detect S-AF. That said, I have neither experience with modern MFT bodies (newest is GX80/GX8) nor with the current competitors, so maybe my perceptions are wrong?

You need a newer camera and Olympus has on sensor phase detect this is very useful for wildlife shooting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hyp 111]

I certainly need a new camera. Unfortunately my wallet disagrees, so the trusty Em5 (Original version) will have to do. Luckily it is mostly a difference in features (AF, focus peaking) and video quality. Image quality is in my opinion just barely improving. 
 

[adamhanlon 0]

Sony announced a new 32MP APS-C sensor in December last, so they are obviously continuing to develop new sensors in this size. Whether any manufacturer will utilize this particular one remains to be seen, and of course, the APS-C sensor may be used in a mirrorless camera.

For the past few models, Nikon has used Sony designed manufactured sensors...Nikon to "tweak" them, but this process takes place in house. 

I was assured early last year by Nikon that future camera development would be exclusively devoted to mirrorless, but then the D780 happened! I think they need to continue to release some DSLRs as there is a vast pool of F mount lenses out there. I they no longer produce any F mount bodies, all those customers will have to change mounts...which would offer them the opportunity to chose brands other than Nikon. It would be a pretty bad idea for them to do so currently!

I use continuous predictive AF (3D in Nikon speak) as my default focus mode on the D500 and D850. It is so good, it is almost cheating! 

 

 

 

 

[Interceptor121 765]

28 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

Sony announced a new 32MP APS-C sensor in December last, so they are obviously continuing to develop new sensors in this size. Whether any manufacturer will utilize this particular one remains to be seen, and of course, the APS-C sensor may be used in a mirrorless camera.

For the past few models, Nikon has used Sony designed manufactured sensors...Nikon to "tweak" them, but this process takes place in house. 

I was assured early last year by Nikon that future camera development would be exclusively devoted to mirrorless, but then the D780 happened! I think they need to continue to release some DSLRs as there is a vast pool of F mount lenses out there. I they no longer produce any F mount bodies, all those customers will have to change mounts...which would offer them the opportunity to chose brands other than Nikon. It would be a pretty bad idea for them to do so currently!

I use continuous predictive AF (3D in Nikon speak) as my default focus mode on the D500 and D850. It is so good, it is almost cheating! 

 

 

 

 

@adamhanlon D780 is full frame not APSC they do make money in that segment and as I wrote it should go on a few years more. APSC however is dead and the new mirrorless from Nikon are totally focussed on full frame for professional use and Z50 just a basic model for non pro.

Nikon have to choose if there is more value to go into the future or release camera for their customer base. The second option will probably mean the business will be extinct in less than 3 years. So for sure APSC DSLR is not the focus of anyone

APSC sensor will of course continue as they go into Sony A6x range and they like megapixels!

If Nikon will be able to offer same performance of AF on mirrorless I do not know at present it looks they are lagging and phase detect on sensor is much more software than hardware

Edited March 18, 2020 by Interceptor121

[TimG 62]

1 hour ago, adamhanlon said:

I was assured early last year by Nikon that future camera development would be exclusively devoted to mirrorless, but then the D780 happened!

 

D6 announcement too

[Interceptor121 765]

34 minutes ago, TimG said:

D6 announcement too

Guys am talking about DSLR APSC read the article first maybe

 

I think you all should start getting used to an EVF by the way as Canon is putting those even on DSLR

[adamhanlon 0]

@Interceptor121

I am fully aware that the D780 (and before you say it the D6 too) is full frame, I was using it as an illustration that despite Nikon telling me specifically that they were moving to developing mirrorless rather than SLR, they then released an SLR!

I'm not sure anyone (except Nikon etc.) had the figures about the commercial value of APS-C vs Full Framer. The figures commonly used are from CIPA, but this does not differentiate. As underwater image makers, we tend to get a skewed impression, as the Nikon entry level SLRs offer limited lens compatibility. 

The issue with APS-C is that it is hard to provide increases in performance...I would not state that Nikon will not release a new APS-C SLR, but rather that they will not do so until there are sufficient new performance advantages to make it a sensible decision. The delay between the releases of D300 and D500, also illustrates this. 

Nikon has a well established user base, that are largely happy with the SLR format. It would be crazy for them to ignore this. 

 

 

[Interceptor121 765]

Just now, adamhanlon said:

@Interceptor121

I am fully aware that the D780 (and before you say it the D6 too) is full frame, I was using it as an illustration that despite Nikon telling me specifically that they were moving to developing mirrorless rather than SLR, they then released an SLR!

I'm not sure anyone (except Nikon etc.) had the figures about the commercial value of APS-C vs Full Framer. The figures commonly used are from CIPA, but this does not differentiate. As underwater image makers, we tend to get a skewed impression, as the Nikon entry level SLRs offer limited lens compatibility. 

The issue with APS-C is that it is hard to provide increases in performance...I would not state that Nikon will not release a new APS-C SLR, but rather that they will not do so until there are sufficient new performance advantages to make it a sensible decision. The delay between the releases of D300 and D500, also illustrates this. 

Nikon has a well established user base, that are largely happy with the SLR format. It would be crazy for them to ignore this. 

 

 

Adam the source of this info is Nikon themselves and they make zero money on your old lenses so they have developed a brand new format for mirrorless and a new mount so they can survive as a business

This is about money not being nice to someone who last bought a camera 3 years ago and a lens 5 years ago

[adamhanlon 0]

It is not that simple. 

I own a bunch of Nikon F mount lenses, and I need F mount bodies to put them on....this ensures my loyalty to the brand. This is common among many photographers. 

If Nikon choses to cease to support existing lenses, photographers would then be forced to entirely reconsider their brand of camera. They are aware of this and know that doing so would ensure that they would cease to exist as a company!

Nikon themselves told me that they were not developing any new SLRs and then released the D780 and D6...they have not (to my knowledge) made any official pronouncement that are no longer going to produce any new APS-C SLR cameras. 

I foresee a period in which they will be designing mirrorless and SLR cameras in parallel. Nikon's release schedule has (nearly) always been dictated by developing new technology, rather than by some kind of artificial release schedule. Think D800 and D500 (sensor and AF technology advances respectively)

I would be very cautious about predicting what Nikon will do next!

 

 

 

[TimG 62]

28 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Guys am talking about DSLR APSC read the article first maybe

 

I think you all should start getting used to an EVF by the way as Canon is putting those even on DSLR

I was just referring to Nikon allegedly going purely mirrorless rather than just APS-C

[Interceptor121 765]

1 minute ago, TimG said:

I was just referring to Nikon allegedly going purely mirrorless rather than just APS-C

No I don't think that will happen short term because most people that buy a full frame come from either APSC from Nikon or a camera of another brand and on full frame today they make money and have a technical edge

At least a couple of year more and they can find a way to make the Sony sensors work for them

[ehanauer 41]

I made my decision 4 years ago when Nikon was treating video as an illegitimate stepchild. I sold all my Nikon gear and switched to Panasonic GH4 (since updated to GH5). No regrets, never looked back.