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Interceptor121

The impact of DSLR APSC Phase Out on Underwater Photography

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My thoughts on this may differ from the norm.  I've been shooting FX since the D700 came out, currently using a D850 in a Nauticam housing.  I have only two lens choices: 105vr and 16-35.  I've tried adding some flexibility with the 60mm macro and a 1.4tc on the 105, but the 60mm focal length is too short, and the 1.4tc robbed too much sharpness for my liking.

When I look at an APSC, I see a tradeoff.   That tradeoff is image quality versus lens choices.   Yes, I know that for most of you, the sheet size of the FX rig versus an APSC rig is a big deal, and it is.  But for me, image quality is bigger.   What I see as a clear win for APSC is having more useful lens choices, specifically a normal midrange zoom option.  Fisheye?  I can get the 8-15mm Nikkor, or others.

And while I'm sitting here thinking, I suddenly start thinking about cropping, how much I do it, and the fact that a DX camera simply 'precrops' the image, I'm wondering why one couldn't simply stick the same DX lenses and smaller ports on the D850 and shoot it in DX mode?  19mp DX crop is quite good, and I often crop to DX and well beyond in post processing.

So - not an ideal choice, but it IS still a choice.

 

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23 hours ago, Seewolf said:

Its the Aquatica 18462 (39.5 mm) which fits very well, and the zoom gear custom made by Aquatica. They print it, its much lighter and works better than the old aluminum zoom gears.

Isn't the 18462 the old style port system?  I can't seem to find any info apart from it being referred to as for the bayonet style housing; this reference is not used for the newer extensions such as the 48453 which would seem to be the extension recommended to use with the type 4 port chart for Nikon.

  The extension listed in the aquatica port chart is 16.5mm for the bare lens and the difference between the extensions for using a 1.4x is 12mm (for the 10-17 vs 10-17 plus 1.4x) which would be an extension of 28.5mm.  Is the 4" port you use an old style one as well?

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12 hours ago, phxazcraig said:

Fisheye?  I can get the 8-15mm Nikkor, or others.

 

 

That will give you a circular or diagonal fisheye but not a zoom fisheye that is the attractiveness of the APSC format.

A lot of the IQ of full frame and additional resolution goes away when you impose the underwater depth of field requirements. This is certainly through for sharpness, colours and dynamic range remain however DR is not that much of an issue once you pass 12 stops as after you make a jpeg you compress it to 10 stops so somewhere has to give

Likewise the additional color and tonal depth disappears when you create an 8 bit jpeg of your camera

What the full frame gives you is additional latitude to manipulate the process from the raw file down to something you can display and print so the difference will be much more subtle than a complete wow

APSC is an acceptable compromise and the most popular format among semipro shooters and advanced amateurs because the tradeoffs are quite good.

In terms of shooting cropped I am not sure but I would think that would half the resolution but give you some flexibility

Consider that shooting at f/16 with a 48 MP camera already means you are loosing half the resolution to diffraction so cropping will not deteriorate sharpness but may still affect overall tonal and colour depth

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11 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

Isn't the 18462 the old style port system?  I can't seem to find any info apart from it being referred to as for the bayonet style housing; this reference is not used for the newer extensions such as the 48453 which would seem to be the extension recommended to use with the type 4 port chart for Nikon.

  The extension listed in the aquatica port chart is 16.5mm for the bare lens and the difference between the extensions for using a 1.4x is 12mm (for the 10-17 vs 10-17 plus 1.4x) which would be an extension of 28.5mm.  Is the 4" port you use an old style one as well?

The only differences between the old and new extension rings are a locking mechanism that prevents that the port falls off when not under pressure (I use a vacuum system, so this cannot happen anyway) and the numbers start with 18 (old) and 48 (new). The dimensions are exactly the same, no difference between old and new style, parts can be interchanged.

For the Nikon 8-15 without TC I use the 48463 (21.5 mm) and not the 18456 (16.5 mm equivalent to 48456) which I also have. 16.5 mm is a little bit short, I told Aquatica some time ago. I also have the 18453 (28.5 mm) which is clearly to long.

The Kenko 1.4 TC is 19.3 mm flange to flange, no difference between the old and new version (I have both). However, only the new version works with the Nikon 8-15, both work with the Tokina (which I also used). So, the 18462 (or 48462) with 39.5 mm fits exactly. For the Tokina you need shaorter extensions, the Nikon 8-15 is longer.

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21 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Consider that shooting at f/16 with a 48 MP camera already means you are loosing half the resolution to diffraction so cropping will not deteriorate sharpness but may still affect overall tonal and colour depth

Here's a 36mp shot at F29 that still seems to have plenty of detail.170927-095347-19-D810.jpg

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5 hours ago, phxazcraig said:

Here's a 36mp shot at F29 that still seems to have plenty of detail.170927-095347-19-D810.jpg

Thats because the picture is a couple of megapixels. In practical terms your camera is resolving around 6 megapixels if you printed it on A3 paper you would notice on social not and on screen only if you go 1:1 pixel (that you dont)

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On 4/15/2020 at 1:19 AM, Interceptor121 said:

Thats because the picture is a couple of megapixels. In practical terms your camera is resolving around 6 megapixels if you printed it on A3 paper you would notice on social not and on screen only if you go 1:1 pixel (that you dont)

That picture was not 'a couple of megapixels'.   That picture is almost uncropped and represents about 30-33mp of resolution.  Here is a crop from it:170927-095347-19-D810-2.jpg

 

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8 hours ago, phxazcraig said:

That picture was not 'a couple of megapixels'.   That picture is almost uncropped and represents about 30-33mp of resolution.  Here is a crop from it:170927-095347-19-D810-2.jpg

 

Wetpixel pictures are compressed. I have a 4K screen if you put it on flickr at full resolution and it is scaled it will still not show anything but it will on 1:1 pixel. It is physics of diffraction it is just the way it is. Kicks in at different f'stop depending on pixel pitch. The limit on a D850 I think is around f/10 then it will no longer resolve the 45.7 megapixels and start dropping. It happens on my camera too it is normal

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1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Looks like Fuji mirrorless APSC and the now old A6XXX Sony line are all is left in this space?

Canon still sells the EOS M line although its future is unclear. Nikon has the Z50 and Z fc in Z-mount. 

Edited by Barmaglot

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Just now, Barmaglot said:

Canon still sells the EOS M line although its future is unclear. Nikon has the Z50 and Z fc in Z-mount. 

EOS M will be discontinued

But those are mirrorless. My original post was about APSC DSLR which is rather defunct

The only people that are serious are fuji who have chosen not to compete and stay on APSC and Medium Format

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1 minute ago, Interceptor121 said:

EOS M will be discontinued

Did Canon out and out say so? I mean, eventually it will, but who knows how long it's gonna linger in the market. Unlike Nikon 1 and Pentax Q, it's getting pretty good sales.

23 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

But those are mirrorless. My original post was about APSC DSLR which is rather defunct

Sorry, I'm not following... if you're talking about APS-C DSLRs, then how do Fuji X and Sony A6xxx factor into the conversation? 

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Sorry, I'm not following... if you're talking about APS-C DSLRs, then how do Fuji X and Sony A6xxx factor into the conversation? 

Maybe I was not clear
DSLR APSC is dead

Mirrorless APSC is only a focus area for Fuji
Sony uses their oldest line for the A6XXX canon has some almost dead products and Nikon has some unconvincing mirrorless APSC
Overall not looking promising whichever angle you take


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DSLR in general is dying, not just APS-C. The last holdout is Pentax, with all three of their remaining users.

Sony doesn't place as much focus on APS-C as they do on full-frame, true, but still - ZV-E10 came out last year, and they released the 16-55mm f/2.8 G and 70-350mm f/4.5-6.3 G not that long ago.

Canon M is far from dead, it's getting good sales, M6 II and M200 came out in late 2019, M50 II was released in 2020. Yes, the lens selection is limited, but from what I understand, most of EOS M sales are to users who never get anything besides the kit lens and maybe a small telezoom anyway, and if you want more glass - the entire EF and EF-S line is at your service via an adapter.

Nikon Z50 is a pretty good camera; underwater it makes a high quality and very compact package with 15-45mm and WWL-C. It also has access to legacy F mount glass, although in Nikon's case there are more compatibility issues to consider with AF and aperture control.

Yes, Fuji is putting most of their effort in APS-C X-mount, and still their AF lags behind the 'old' Sony...

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3 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

DSLR in general is dying, not just APS-C. The last holdout is Pentax, with all three of their remaining users.

Sony doesn't place as much focus on APS-C as they do on full-frame, true, but still - ZV-E10 came out last year, and they released the 16-55mm f/2.8 G and 70-350mm f/4.5-6.3 G not that long ago.

Canon M is far from dead, it's getting good sales, M6 II and M200 came out in late 2019, M50 II was released in 2020. Yes, the lens selection is limited, but from what I understand, most of EOS M sales are to users who never get anything besides the kit lens and maybe a small telezoom anyway, and if you want more glass - the entire EF and EF-S line is at your service via an adapter.

Nikon Z50 is a pretty good camera; underwater it makes a high quality and very compact package with 15-45mm and WWL-C. It also has access to legacy F mount glass, although in Nikon's case there are more compatibility issues to consider with AF and aperture control.

Yes, Fuji is putting most of their effort in APS-C X-mount, and still their AF lags behind the 'old' Sony...

AF is probably the most overrated feature of a camera underwater

But I think the biggest change for underwater photography is going to be mirrorless instead of DSLR it is just a matter of time and it is getting closer and closer especially as camera tend to have very fast EVF refresh all arguments about OVF are slowly dying

Definitely time to move on 

I started this thread long ago and now that the D500 is officially discontinued i wanted to relaunch the discussion

 

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4 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

AF is probably the most overrated feature of a camera underwater

Depends on what you're shooting - Jim Decker is certainly impressed with the Sony A1's capability to lock onto and track fish eyes even with 90mm lens + diopter, i.e. supermacro. Blackwater is also hugely dependant on AF. Wide-angle is less critical, true, but not everything is wide-angle. The D500's claim to fame was its unparalleled 3D tracking AF.

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Just now, Barmaglot said:

Depends on what you're shooting - Jim Decker is certainly impressed with the Sony A1's capability to lock onto and track fish eyes even with 90mm lens + diopter, i.e. supermacro. Blackwater is also hugely dependant on AF. Wide-angle is less critical, true, but not everything is wide-angle. The D500's claim to fame was its unparalleled 3D tracking AF.

I am not a big fan of supermacro that is true I find it pretty boring

3D tracking always puzzles me you shoot something that is moving randomly in the frame ok for a naturalistic shot but with zero control of composition is like many birds in flight shots seen one seen all. 

I generally do not even use CAF ...!

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I take it you don't shoot blackwater? Some amazing images to be found there; it's definitely not 'seen one seen all'.

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I take it you don't shoot blackwater? Some amazing images to be found there; it's definitely not 'seen one seen all'.

Actually not and not planning to any time soon


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19 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Massimo, chatting with you is a pleasure. :rofl::rofl:

My wife says the same haha

Sorry I can stand a fish portrait but some weird and wonderful blackwater image I leave to someone else

Of course if I was there I would but would not exactly plan a trip

Mind you the same goes on land I can take an image of a bee at times or a dragonfly but spiders are indeed ugly

  • Haha 1

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I have no information on this beyond what is being posted on the internet, and being pretty heavily invested in Nikon stuff, it does not have any direct impact on me, but supposedly being announced in March 2022:

"One of the upcoming three new Canon RF-mount mirrorless cameras will be the Canon EOS R7. This Canon EOS R7 will be an RF mount APS-C format mirrorless camera, which may incorporate the features of the M50 series and 7D series models. The official announcement will come as early as March 2022.

The previous rumors said the Canon EOS R7 mirrorless camera will be “directly aimed at sports, wildlife and videography”, to replace the Canon EOS 7D Mark II DSLR camera."

Canon EOS R7 Rumored Specifications:

  • 32.5MP APS-C CMOS Sensor
  • DIGIC X Image Processor
  • UHD 4K60p & Full HD 120p Video Recording 10-Bit Internal Video
  • Sensor-Shift 5-Axis Image Stabilization

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46 minutes ago, Draq said:

I have no information on this beyond what is being posted on the internet, and being pretty heavily invested in Nikon stuff, it does not have any direct impact on me, but supposedly being announced in March 2022:

"One of the upcoming three new Canon RF-mount mirrorless cameras will be the Canon EOS R7. This Canon EOS R7 will be an RF mount APS-C format mirrorless camera, which may incorporate the features of the M50 series and 7D series models. The official announcement will come as early as March 2022.

The previous rumors said the Canon EOS R7 mirrorless camera will be “directly aimed at sports, wildlife and videography”, to replace the Canon EOS 7D Mark II DSLR camera."

Canon EOS R7 Rumored Specifications:

  • 32.5MP APS-C CMOS Sensor
  • DIGIC X Image Processor
  • UHD 4K60p & Full HD 120p Video Recording 10-Bit Internal Video
  • Sensor-Shift 5-Axis Image Stabilization

Canon has a clear strategy for what it seems as they are actively stopping the entire EF lens line after killing the camera

We shall see if and when it comes to life

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Again, I have no knowledge, just posting something I saw.  maybe APS-C is not quite dead?

image.png.9781c094239e9639ac87856e1d10471a.png

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Again, I have no knowledge, just posting something I saw.  maybe APS-C is not quite dead?
image.png.9781c094239e9639ac87856e1d10471a.png

APSC DSLR is dead


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