Do you need RAW video?

[Interceptor121 533]

I got hold of ProRes RAW clip from Zcam and checked it against log compression

 

https://interceptor121.com/2020/05/23/do-you-need-raw-video/

 

Read the whole article. From the limited sample it seems like the case is small for MFT but potentially more interesting for larger sensor

[John Doe II 16]

Good read. Thanks for your efforts to help us better understand the issues.

[Interceptor121 533]

There are some serious issues with ProRes RAW and the nikon Z series


http://blog.falklumo.com/2020/01/the-conundrum-of-nikon-z6-prores-raw.html

Right now ProRes RAW is better on MFT other than of course ARRI and RED


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[Steve Douglas 16]

Though I am now retired from filming and diving my large library of raw video footage still sells now and then.  It is usually always a behavioral shot that sells. Standing shots tend to be boring but a unique, or even typical, behavior is what the channels are looking for. 

[Hmmm 6]

You missed talking about compressed raw and the flexibility of raw in post. All well and good to have locked in perfect WB at the time on a tiny screen, but when you get back to the computer, having extra room to move here or there is a major benefit and something a lot of other codecs cant do. Also recording onto CF is great, dont need SSDs for raw. Also not sure why you write off the Blackmagic cameras, Their version of braw provides the flexibility of raw format while working in a slightly different space. At the end of the day if you can shoot 12:1 braw and get the same quality output as a 12:1 r3d it is the same outcome, then it just comes back to the camera and sensor for differences. Same can be said for shooting another codec like prores 422 or other fixed format, if the outcome is good and you can get what you want, its all the same, however your ability to pivot on those other codecs is far more limited. 

[Interceptor121 533]

Braw is actually video not raw as it has already gone through demosaic and is only supported by their own program. It is also lossy and I am not sure I can back up most of the claims about the various format and the efficiency as their algorithm is proprietary and not documented so I left it aside. I believe being linked to a single brand and not able to go mainstream is a major limitation.
Right now is unclear how much more headroom raw provides compared to a high quality video codec like ProRes 422 HQ and this is possibly camera dependant
We need more footage and with cameras like Zcam and Panasonic S1H supporting it we should have a better base
It is not possible to draw accurate comparisons with raw images because in camera jpegs are 8 bit and many cameras shoot 10 bit video that can take much more changes in post


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[Interceptor121 533]

This post may be of interest. In essence the only thing that is RAW about BRAW is the name. It is just a video codec

 

http://www.bmcuser.com/forum/blackmagic-camera/general-discussion/22868-oops-braw-isnt-raw--its-a-ycbcr-codec

[Glasshouse 1]

As far as I am aware, there is no specification to state what RAW ‘technically’ is. I also don’t believe it really matters. What’s important is what you can do with the footage you manage to capture.

About 6months I upgraded from a GoPro to a BMPCC4K rig and absolutely love it. I’ve never had to worry about learning to get exposure or white balance perfect in camera.. I can just do it in post. Not having to worry about this sort of thing means I can actually film and more importantly, enjoy the dive at the same time.

Do you need RAW.. no, but you also don’t need IBIS or zoom lenses, or a scuba tank... Yet it’s still nice to have the flexibility.

I find it a lot easier to hold a neutrally buoyant rig stable underwater than I do getting exposure perfect in a world where we can’t plan shots and ask the nice marine wildlife to do something again because weren’t ready the first time.

For me RAW (or none RAW... BRAW) is significantly more useful than something like IBIS. 

[Interceptor121 533]

36 minutes ago, Glasshouse said:

As far as I am aware, there is no specification to state what RAW ‘technically’ is. I also don’t believe it really matters. What’s important is what you can do with the footage you manage to capture.

About 6months I upgraded from a GoPro to a BMPCC4K rig and absolutely love it. I’ve never had to worry about learning to get exposure or white balance perfect in camera.. I can just do it in post. Not having to worry about this sort of thing means I can actually film and more importantly, enjoy the dive at the same time.

Do you need RAW.. no, but you also don’t need IBIS or zoom lenses, or a scuba tank... Yet it’s still nice to have the flexibility.

I find it a lot easier to hold a neutrally buoyant rig stable underwater than I do getting exposure perfect in a world where we can’t plan shots and ask the nice marine wildlife to do something again because weren’t ready the first time.

For me RAW (or none RAW... BRAW) is significantly more useful than something like IBIS. 

Yes there is a definition RAW is unprocessed sensor data at the bit depth of the ADC in the sensor. 

You then have lossless and lossy RAW.

BRAW is none of either is just a video codec with high bitrate andapparently uses the same DCT that prores uses. It may have the headroom but it locks you down to a single product and vendor more than ProRes RAW does. In this respect is the same as proprietary RAW formats like Canon or ARRI but it is not RAW so really I do not see much point in this. 

I am not sure you can make a call from gopro to BMPCC if you have not used a camera that has it? I have tried all of them and IBIS has his merits together with the ability to make changes however this is not substitute for correct exposure and light 

All those things help

Currently ProRes RAW is the only RAW lossy offering that is available at consumer level and is also very efficient as it compresses sensor data the bitrate are manageable with current equipment. One concerns are royalties only atomos is willing to pay them but their supported camera list grows everyday

The only non pro camera right now that can go underwater and records RAW is the Zcam E2 all the others don't have RAW

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Interceptor121

[Glasshouse 1]

Could you clarify what you mean in terms of locked in to a product. I can open my BRAW files in Premier Pro as well as Davinci.

I didn’t say IBIS didn’t have its merits. I said I prefer the flexibility of BRAW (even if it’s not got the official raw stamp of approval) as I find it easier to hold a camera still than getting all the other camera settings correct. This is my opinion based on my life experiences.

My point was that you do not ‘need’ half the features we have access to. You ‘need’ to find a setup that works for you.

[Interceptor121 533]

4 minutes ago, Glasshouse said:

Could you clarify what you mean in terms of locked in to a product. I can open my BRAW files in Premier Pro as well as Davinci.

I didn’t say IBIS didn’t have its merits. I said I prefer the flexibility of BRAW (even if it’s not got the official raw stamp of approval) as I find it easier to hold a camera still than getting all the other camera settings correct. This is my opinion based on my life experiences.

My point was that you do not ‘need’ half the features we have access to. You ‘need’ to find a setup that works for you.

Yes I agree on the principle nothing is a must but most things are helpful

Housing ergonomics are essential for example this Zcam set up that shoots RAW requires a monitor I wonder how that works underwater as the rig is taller than is wide?

There have been posts here on RAW and how is going to be a game changer so I started looking into it, that does not mean I am fully convinced but certainly will have some benefits. I am also taking pictures so I am well aware of what raw can or not do.

The thing that is becoming apparent is that RAW for consumers has limitations (12 bits) that make it more suitable to smaller formats such as MFT than larger that will then crop to 4K or loose the dynamic range they have in the process

Edited May 28, 2020 by Interceptor121

[John Doe II 16]

What is the S1H RAW like then ?

[Interceptor121 533]

43 minutes ago, John Doe II said:

What is the S1H RAW like then ?

We don't know how it will look as it has not been released however it is capped at 12 bits

[John Doe II 16]

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

We don't know how it will look as it has not been released however it is capped at 12 bits

In your opinion is 12 bits enough? It was not that long ago that 8 bits was the norm and 10 bits was considered cutting edge (at prosumer level).

No test footage of the S1H in the wild yet?

[Interceptor121 533]

The sensor of the S1H outputs 14 bit RAW still images however in video only reads at 14 bits in super35 crop at 30 fps all the rest is 12 bits anyway
There are cases where the log processing of the camera achieves better results than ProRes RAW not in terms of colours but sharpness so we need to see a side by side comparison
Right now the only camera fully benefiting from RAW is the Zcam E2


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