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stuartv

Sea&Sea YS-D3 doesn't work with UWT TTL trigger?

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Yes, my guess is that most, if not all, of the problems will disappear when you switch to the Z240's.  

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I've been using the Z240s for something like 4 years (or more?), and for the last year with the UWT trigger. I know they work just fine. Once I got the first UWT trigger replaced, the UWT and Z240s have worked flawlessly.

I was just hoping for strobes that would be a little brighter and would cycle faster for shooting in continuous drive. Oh, well.

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Yes, my guess is that the problems will disappear when you switch to the Z240's.  Also, I would give Bill's solid core cable another try, this time with the Inon strobe. 

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The evidence seems to be that S&S strobe slave sensors are getting progressively less sensitive and is a major cause of complaints when using them.  You've got to wonder why this would be.  S&S in the manual state clearly they won't work unless you use S&S cables - maybe they are designed to only work with S&S cables and triggers?   The reason for the low sensitivity I recall seeing was to prevent false triggering - making a more sensitive slave sensor is most definitely not difficult or costly - S&S just choose not to do it.

Going back to your INONs  seems to be the most sensible option.

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3 hours ago, Kraken de Mabini said:

Yes, my guess is that the problems will disappear when you switch to the Z240's.  Also, I would give Bill's solid core cable another try, this time with the Inon strobe. 

 

As I have said, I have been using the Z240s for a year with the UWT trigger and my own cables and they work flawlessly.

There seems to be no point in trying Bill's cables with the Inons - which is good since I don't have a Sea&Sea adapter for my Inons, so I can't connect Bill's cable to the Inons anyway.

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2 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

The evidence seems to be that S&S strobe slave sensors are getting progressively less sensitive and is a major cause of complaints when using them.  You've got to wonder why this would be.  S&S in the manual state clearly they won't work unless you use S&S cables - maybe they are designed to only work with S&S cables and triggers?   The reason for the low sensitivity I recall seeing was to prevent false triggering - making a more sensitive slave sensor is most definitely not difficult or costly - S&S just choose not to do it.

Going back to your INONs  seems to be the most sensible option.

 

Yep. It seems like Sea&Sea only make a handful of camera housings, and they are for high end cameras. It seems like they are only interested in selling their strobes to people with less expensive cameras (i.e. with a built-in flash), or people with high-end cameras that buy the Sea&Sea housing, and the Sea&Sea trigger that fits in their housing.

The seems to translate to "we want people to take our stuff seriously, so we have to make some housings for high-end cameras, so we can have some sponsored pros (aka "brand ambassadors"?) and dealers shooting with our housings and strobes. But, really, all we care about is the lower end of the market."

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Also, while I'm on the subject...

The YS-D3 specs say it is Guide Number 33, and has a 60 - 70 degree beam.

The Inon Z330 specs say it is also GN 33, but with a 110 degree beam.

Doesn't that mean the Z330 is actually putting out a lot more light on full dump? Or, to put it another way, illuminating just as well as the YS-D3, but over a much bigger area?

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25 minutes ago, stuartv said:

Doesn't that mean the Z330 is actually putting out a lot more light on full dump? Or, to put it another way, illuminating just as well as the YS-D3, but over a much bigger area?

That depends on how uniform the YS-D3's beam is. Tests done by Retra UWT show Z-330's peak illumination to be achieved in a relatively narrow spot.

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23 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

That depends on how uniform the YS-D3's beam is. Tests done by Retra UWT show Z-330's peak illumination to be achieved in a relatively narrow spot.

Thanks! Now, I think I remember seeing that before.

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31 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

That depends on how uniform the YS-D3's beam is. Tests done by Retra UWT show Z-330's peak illumination to be achieved in a relatively narrow spot.

I cannot tell from that article whether the measurements were taken when shooting with the diffusers on the strobes or not.

The Z330 beam pattern does not look very good without a diffuser - and the data shown seems like it corresponds to the pattern without a diffuser.

I would feel like it was much more useful if the test was done with diffusers on each of the strobes.

Also, it would be nice to see a similar but different test that shows the differences between the strobes when shooting at full dump. If there is no advantage to a brighter strobe, then why do they all keep making them brighter and brighter?

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17 minutes ago, stuartv said:

I would feel like it was much more useful if the test was done with diffusers on each of the strobes.

Note the shot descriptions; left column is shot without diffusers, right column is with a specific diffuser

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9 minutes ago, stuartv said:

Thanks! Now, I think I remember seeing that before.

I think that applies to both strobes , but they are a bit Apples and Oranges.  INON has a 110° beam bare while S&S has a narrower beam but can get about 100° with a diffuser but the guide number is closer to 24.  Add to that guide numbers are a marketing requirement it gets harder still.  The backscatter test from a year or two back was a reasonable guide to expectations, but a lot of the new strobes are not included.  https://www.backscatter.com/reviews/post/Best-Underwater-Strobe-Flash

It's not entirely clear where the angles they quote are measured from The figure to look at seems to be the 60° measurement which is either edge of a 120° beam if I am not mistaken and the strobes are all quite close there.

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On 1/18/2021 at 11:20 AM, JustinO said:

Well, that is weird - am no physicist, but suggests the sensor may not be as sensitive to red light?  Just took a look at the S-Turtle trigger - looks like an interesting bit of kit, .  Maybe test it on Manual rather than TTL first just to ensure you get a bright enough output?  Fingers crossed it works for you!

I think many strobe triggers are most sensitive in the near IR. A common trick is to use a TV remote to fire them.

Bill

 

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9 hours ago, bvanant said:

I think many strobe triggers are most sensitive in the near IR. A common trick is to use a TV remote to fire them.

Bill

I evaluated Z-240 sensitivity range few years ago.  Z-240 optical receiver was more sensitive in red light, than in white light. And yes, it also has sensitivity in near infrared, but in red range it is better. That was a reason for red LED usage in TTL triggers. And later this solution was confirmed for many times in comparison tests.

Edited by Pavel Kolpakov

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:31 PM, Barmaglot said:

Note the shot descriptions; left column is shot without diffusers, right column is with a specific diffuser

Right. I was talking about the data chart that shows how much less light there is in the different zones. I can't tell whether the data in that chart is based on using a diffuser or not. It kind of looks like it was collected without a diffuser. If so, I would really like to see what the same data looks like when collected with a diffuser. To my untrained eye, it looks like all of them would be closer in performance.

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:43 PM, ChrisRoss said:

I think that applies to both strobes , but they are a bit Apples and Oranges.  INON has a 110° beam bare while S&S has a narrower beam but can get about 100° with a diffuser but the guide number is closer to 24.  Add to that guide numbers are a marketing requirement it gets harder still.  The backscatter test from a year or two back was a reasonable guide to expectations, but a lot of the new strobes are not included.  https://www.backscatter.com/reviews/post/Best-Underwater-Strobe-Flash

It's not entirely clear where the angles they quote are measured from The figure to look at seems to be the 60° measurement which is either edge of a 120° beam if I am not mistaken and the strobes are all quite close there.

 

In that article, I thought this quote was interesting:

"Inon Z-330 vs. Sea & Sea YS-D2J

In looking at the 2 top current model strobes, their patterns without diffusers are almost identical."

Interesting because in the photos in the UWT article, those 2 strobes, without diffusers, appear to have very different patterns.

Also, comparing the Z240 and Z330 in that chart (with diffusers), it looks like the 330 is a solid full stop brighter, at full dump, At least, in the more central area of the beam.

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19 hours ago, bvanant said:

I think many strobe triggers are most sensitive in the near IR. A common trick is to use a TV remote to fire them.

Bill

 

That's really interesting, thanks Bill!
Just tested it  with an old strobe and it worked. Close range only, so  I can't mount it on the TV and aim it back at the sofa....I guess I'll have to find another way to persuade the kids to do something else during lockdown! 

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Well, there is good news and bad news.

The bad news: I am a dumbass. At least that is only bad for me and not so much bad news for the rest of you.

The good news: The UWT trigger seems to work fine with the YS-D3s.

Tonight I was working on my camera housing, trying to work out some things with the UWT trigger and my Z240 strobes. I was checking the position of the dial selector on the trigger, to make sure it was set correctly for the Z240s. It was hard to see because the wires for one of the LEDs were kind of in the way. I stuck a finger in to try and push the wires out of the way so I could see. 

I guess I pushed on them just right and the LED slid another several mm up into the hole where it goes. Then I tried it with the other LED and it also (after some wiggling) also slid up a similar amount.

*sigh*

I got the YS-D3s back out, along with the cables @bvanant sent me, and tried everything again.

Here is the weird part: The first cable I tried was the fat, solid core cable that Bill sent me. The strobe still did not fire. I almost packed everything away right then, thinking that the LED position didn't matter. But, that is not my personality. Next, I tried the 1000 core cable. That didn't work, either.

Last, just for the sake of completeness, I tried the 613 core cable. It worked! I tried a few shots with it, in both Manual (on the strobe) mode and switching everything over to TTL. It worked every time. Then I moved the cable over to the other LED port on the housing and tried it all again. Everything continued to work.

So then I got out my Howshot 613L cables that I've been using all along with my Z240s and tried both of them, on both LED ports. 

Then I got out the other YS-D3 strobe and tried my cables on both ports with that strobe.

Everything worked! As in, everything using a 613 core cable worked. I did not go back and retry the 1000 core and solid core cables again after having success with the first 613 cable.

The sad part is that the LEDs were like they were because I am the one that installed the trigger in the housing. When I bought the housing and trigger from Reef, they sent it pre-assembled. But, that first trigger was defective and they ended up replacing it. Rather than ship the housing to them to do the replacement, they just sent me a new trigger to swap out myself. So, the positioning of the LEDs was totally my fault. (but they worked just fine with my Z240s...)

So.... what a lot of hoopla for nothing!

@Pavel Kolpakov I want to apologize for all the doubt I raised in this thread about the UWT trigger. And thank you again for the help here and via email.

The funny thing is that I had already decided to forget about trying to use these YS-D3 strobes, so I have a buddy coming to buy them from me tomorrow. At least now I know, and I can order another set at my leisure.

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Good to see a solution, not sure why you would be keen to buy another pair if they are so sensitive about their triggering though - do you see any advantage to them over your Z-240s?

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21 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

Good to see a solution, not sure why you would be keen to buy another pair if they are so sensitive about their triggering though - do you see any advantage to them over your Z-240s?

The reasons I wanted them in the first place were expecting them to have more power, when needed, and the ability to shoot strings on continuous drive (faster than what the Z240s will do).

However, I'm not going to buy another pair right away. I thought this was a done deal earlier and I could do something else with the money I'll be getting back out of these strobes tomorrow. So, I made arrangements to pick up a Sony 200-600 lens on Friday. You know... for those Jawfish that just won't come out if you're too close. ;) Strobe money gone (for now).

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LOL, sounds a brilliant switch: strobes to a 200-600 lens. :rofl:

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Regardless, UWT doesn't have a D3 profile yet, correct?

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6 hours ago, TimG said:

LOL, sounds a brilliant switch: strobes to a 200-600 lens. :rofl:

 

I assume everyone has a list of "I wants".... strobes and a long lens are just 2 of MANY items on mine... :D (and I stumbled across a killer deal on the lens yesterday)

 

2 hours ago, Lewis88 said:

Regardless, UWT doesn't have a D3 profile yet, correct?

 

As far as I know, that is correct. When "new strobes" makes it way back to the top of my shopping list, ordering a Turtle trigger directly from Balazs' website is definitely something I will be looking at. But, really, where I've ended up is going to give me a good opportunity to do what I should have done long before now - experiment with using TTL with my Z240s. If it proves useful, then new strobes and a trigger with a TTL profile for them will be on the list. If I decide TTL doesn't really have any value for what I do, then I won't care about the D3 profile. The profile isn't used when shooting on plain old manual (no TTL).

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On 1/27/2021 at 4:34 PM, Lewis88 said:

Regardless, UWT doesn't have a D3 profile yet, correct?

YS-D3 profile will be added to UWT firmware at the end of this week.

I will also share TTL test results of YS-D3 by optics and by sync cord.

Edited by Pavel Kolpakov

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6 minutes ago, Pavel Kolpakov said:

YS-D3 profile will be added to UWT firmware at the end of this week. 

I will also share TTL test results of YS-D3 by optics and by sync cord.

Once you have that, how could I get that profile into my UWT trigger? Is the only way to send my trigger to you to update?

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