S-Turtle Mobie - Sony A6400

[ScottAudette 7]

Hey hey,

Figured it might be time to break this out from the monster thread Turtle thread. So, thanks to @TimG and some windex I can now get the S-Turtle to trigger. YES!!!

But now on to my next dilemma. I am trying to get the trigger to fire during a motor drive sequence. @Phil Rudin I know you've mentioned getting this to work. It works perfectly for me with electrical sync via the bulkhead. Makes photographing the sharks so much easier. 
 

I've tried WL Manual mode with first curtain sync. All i get is ONE frame. Very bright LED trigger then nothing. In my mind manual mode should be the same as electrical sync. 

 

thoughts?

 

 

[ChrisRoss 150]

So are the trigger LEDs firing every time or not?  If the trigger LED fires just once it could be a trigger problem or the camera may not think the flash is ready perhaps? 

 

[TimG 62]

1 hour ago, ChrisRoss said:

So are the trigger LEDs firing every time or not?  If the trigger LED fires just once it could be a trigger problem or the camera may not think the flash is ready perhaps? 

 

I had the same thought: the camera may not think the flash is ready.

[ScottAudette 7]

The LED only fires on the first frame of the sequence.

Actually, I think it's the trigger not returning to ready state. I am using the camera in WL mode for manual strobe firing. So, no TTL. It should just be sending a sync to the trigger no other communications. 

If you wait a split second and don't motor drive it works fine. I'm working with @Balage_diver in this as well. His trying to get his hands on a A6400 this week and test on his end. 

[ChrisRoss 150]

22 minutes ago, ScottAudette said:

The LED only fires on the first frame of the sequence.

Actually, I think it's the trigger not returning to ready state. I am using the camera in WL mode for manual strobe firing. So, no TTL. It should just be sending a sync to the trigger no other communications. 

If you wait a split second and don't motor drive it works fine. I'm working with @Balage_diver in this as well. His trying to get his hands on a A6400 this week and test on his end. 

yes certainly sounds like a camera specific issue.  Does the A6400 have a manual flash mode? 

[stuartv 34]

3 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

yes certainly sounds like a camera specific issue.  Does the A6400 have a manual flash mode? 

It could be camera-specific or it could be trigger-specific.

With my Sony (a7rIV) and UWT trigger, I can run the camera in Continuous Drive (I KNOW I've tested it up to at least Mid speed) and the trigger will fire every time (5 fps or so).

Scott, do you have a regular camera flash unit (for land use) that you can plug into the hotshoe to see if it will fire repetitively in Continuous Drive? That could help you identify whether it's the camera or the trigger.

[ScottAudette 7]

So, here's the breakdown from testing:

Electrical Sync via bulkhead:
Works as expected fires everytime

Canon 600 land strobe:
Also fires as expected. Everytime in sequence. 

Now once I switch to manual using the WL mode on the camera I get one frame. And I can't test it with a land strobe because it doesn't see it. @Balage_diver said it works with his Sony A7III, (could be different one but I forget LOL)

 

Hopefully he's able to get an A6000X series camera to test with!

 

[Lewis88 13]

Scott, I have an A6100 and Sturtle. i will see if I can recreate your scenario and how mine performs.

[ScottAudette 7]

@Balage_diver has been working with me on this for a bit now. He's found the same things happening as I did. So here ia a little bit of a wrap up!

The A6000x series will not work in mid continuous or high continuous with the Sony Turtle. Neither in TTL or WL/Manual. He had hoped it would be an easy fix but it's not.  So there is no timetable on this. 

Also when using the Turtle in TTL the first frame would be exposed perfectly. Consequently if you fired the camera again quickly the next few frames were typically blown out. Like nuclear. He's ordered a YS-D3 to look further into all this.

So, we at least know the Turtle with 150 leds WILL fire a Sea & Seas YS-D3 Lightning.  Just that there are a few other issues.

Now, I bought this to use in my pool studio to fire FO manually. It does that so I am going to keep it just for that. And will stick to my electronic bulkhead for diving. That fires every time and can even cheat up up the Sony's flash sync to 1/200th.

[stuartv 34]

34 minutes ago, ScottAudette said:

@Balage_diver has been working with me on this for a bit now. He's found the same things happening as I did. So here ia a little bit of a wrap up!

The A6000x series will not work in mid continuous or high continuous with the Sony Turtle. Neither in TTL or WL/Manual. He had hoped it would be an easy fix but it's not.  So there is no timetable on this. 

Also when using the Turtle in TTL the first frame would be exposed perfectly. Consequently if you fired the camera again quickly the next few frames were typically blown out. Like nuclear. He's ordered a YS-D3 to look further into all this.

So, we at least know the Turtle with 150 leds WILL fire a Sea & Seas YS-D3 Lightning.  Just that there are a few other issues.

Now, I bought this to use in my pool studio to fire FO manually. It does that so I am going to keep it just for that. And will stick to my electronic bulkhead for diving. That fires every time and can even cheat up up the Sony's flash sync to 1/200th.

 

Does it work in Continuous Lo?

When you mention the bolded part, are you talking about shooting in Continuous Lo? Or Single frame and hitting the shutter release rapidly? If so, how rapidly?

Just an FYI, once I adjusted the LEDs properly on my UWT trigger, it would fire the YS-D3s reliably (with 613 f/o cable). At least, in my house. I didn't get to try it in the water. Also, I don't know about the a6x00, but with my a7rIV, the UWT gives me 1/250 sync speed - with fiber optic.

[ScottAudette 7]

31 minutes ago, stuartv said:

 

Does it work in Continuous Lo?

When you mention the bolded part, are you talking about shooting in Continuous Lo? Or Single frame and hitting the shutter release rapidly? If so, how rapidly?

Just an FYI, once I adjusted the LEDs properly on my UWT trigger, it would fire the YS-D3s reliably (with 613 f/o cable). At least, in my house. I didn't get to try it in the water. Also, I don't know about the a6x00, but with my a7rIV, the UWT gives me 1/250 sync speed - with fiber optic.

Yes, single frame. Let's say half a second and I fire that in TTL. That frame would be overexposed. 

The A6400 max sync is 1/160th. With electrical I can eek it 1/200th. With FO it's 1/160th, anything above and you get clipping. 

 

[ScottAudette 7]

And I've now had no issues with it firing reliably now in single mode. It's just not reliable in TTL with this camera or in any drive mode beside single.  

[ChrisRoss 150]

1 hour ago, ScottAudette said:

Yes, single frame. Let's say half a second and I fire that in TTL. That frame would be overexposed. 

The A6400 max sync is 1/160th. With electrical I can eek it 1/200th. With FO it's 1/160th, anything above and you get clipping. 

 

I seem to recall some Sony models has 1/160 sync by default and would allow a higher speed if a Sony external flash was installed and some trigger setups take advantage of that.

[stuartv 34]

5 hours ago, ScottAudette said:

And I've now had no issues with it firing reliably now in single mode. It's just not reliable in TTL with this camera or in any drive mode beside single.  

That is unfortunate.  

I tried mine with the UWT trigger in TTL mode in the water about a month ago. I shot it in Continuous Lo and Continuous Mid and the TTL seemed to work just fine for me. But that was on an a7rIV with Inon Z240 strobes. I think it's going to be pretty useful in some situations for me.

[Barmaglot 250]

3 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

I seem to recall some Sony models has 1/160 sync by default and would allow a higher speed if a Sony external flash was installed and some trigger setups take advantage of that.

With my A6300 and UWT trigger, setting it to speeds higher than 1/160 puts the trigger in HSS mode.

By the way, I just tested my setup - A6300 with 90mm f/2.8 G, UWT trigger, Retra Pro with supercharger, manual mode, 1/160s, f/2.8, ISO 100, camera set to WL flash, Retra set to manual mode ('ON') and 3% power (2 clicks up from minimum) and it had no problems producing full exposures in both Hi and Hi+ drive modes.

[ScottAudette 7]

52 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

With my A6300 and UWT trigger, setting it to speeds higher than 1/160 puts the trigger in HSS mode.

By the way, I just tested my setup - A6300 with 90mm f/2.8 G, UWT trigger, Retra Pro with supercharger, manual mode, 1/160s, f/2.8, ISO 100, camera set to WL flash, Retra set to manual mode ('ON') and 3% power (2 clicks up from minimum) and it had no problems producing full exposures in both Hi and Hi+ drive modes.

Thanks! Maybe I'll return the the Turtle and try the UWT.

[Barmaglot 250]

3 hours ago, ScottAudette said:

Thanks! Maybe I'll return the the Turtle and try the UWT.

That's probably a bit of an overkill; I'm reasonably sure TRT can fix the problem with a firmware update. I know for a fact that Alex Tyrell (http://dive4photos.com/) uses a Turtle trigger with a Nikon D500 on continuous drive without issues, so the issue is specific to the Sony model. Retra Pros with superchargers at quarter power can do 3-4fps basically until the camera buffer fills up. Also, keep in mind that the UWT triggers are not field programmable - if you get one and it needs an update (for instance, to add a new strobe model), you need to send it back to Pavel in Moscow.

[stuartv 34]

 

9 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

That's probably a bit of an overkill; I'm reasonably sure TRT can fix the problem with a firmware update. 

 

I guess it just depends on how long he wants to wait.

 

21 hours ago, ScottAudette said:

@Balage_diver has been working with me on this for a bit now. He's found the same things happening as I did. So here ia a little bit of a wrap up!

The A6000x series will not work in mid continuous or high continuous with the Sony Turtle. Neither in TTL or WL/Manual. He had hoped it would be an easy fix but it's not.  So there is no timetable on this. 

[stuartv 34]

9 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

That's probably a bit of an overkill; I'm reasonably sure TRT can fix the problem with a firmware update. I know for a fact that Alex Tyrell (http://dive4photos.com/) uses a Turtle trigger with a Nikon D500 on continuous drive without issues, so the issue is specific to the Sony model. Retra Pros with superchargers at quarter power can do 3-4fps basically until the camera buffer fills up. Also, keep in mind that the UWT triggers are not field programmable - if you get one and it needs an update (for instance, to add a new strobe model), you need to send it back to Pavel in Moscow.

 

That is awesome that the RPs can do 1/4 power at 3-4fps. Any chance you could test them at 6fps and see what power level you can use? Even for just a 1 - 2 second burst?

I'm asking about 6fps because my camera is "up to" 3fps on Lo and "up to" 6fps on Mid. I would love to learn if the RP w/Supercharger can handle 6fps and at what power level. I'd guess a full 2 second burst is probably the most I would ever shoot it for without pausing at least for a short time.

[ScottAudette 7]

17 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

That's probably a bit of an overkill; I'm reasonably sure TRT can fix the problem with a firmware update. 

Based on the conversations I had with Balazs it's not going to be any time soon. Said it was going to be a massive undertaking with no timetable for it.  

[Barmaglot 250]

3 hours ago, ScottAudette said:

Based on the conversations I had with Balazs it's not going to be any time soon. Said it was going to be a massive undertaking with no timetable for it.  

Bummer. I wonder what it is that makes it so challenging.

10 hours ago, stuartv said:

That is awesome that the RPs can do 1/4 power at 3-4fps. Any chance you could test them at 6fps and see what power level you can use? Even for just a 1 - 2 second burst?

I'm a bit reluctant to push them too hard on dry land - they're a pretty expensive piece of kit, and I've got a Richelieu Rock liveaboard coming up in two weeks - and I don't have a bathtub large enough to do proper testing in, but next time I go diving (possibly as soon as tomorrow), I'll bring along a slate, mark it camera and strobe settings, and use it as a target for some test bursts.

[stuartv 34]

10 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

Bummer. I wonder what it is that makes it so challenging.

I'm a bit reluctant to push them too hard on dry land - they're a pretty expensive piece of kit, and I've got a Richelieu Rock liveaboard coming up in two weeks - and I don't have a bathtub large enough to do proper testing in, but next time I go diving (possibly as soon as tomorrow), I'll bring along a slate, mark it camera and strobe settings, and use it as a target for some test bursts.

Understood about pushing them on dry land. Any time you have a chance in the water is GREAT by me. I'm not in a huge rush to spend $2500 on new strobes....

[Barmaglot 250]

21 hours ago, stuartv said:

Understood about pushing them on dry land. Any time you have a chance in the water is GREAT by me. I'm not in a huge rush to spend $2500 on new strobes....

I did some testing today, and got very odd results. The UWT trigger functions fine in LO (3fps), HI (8fps) and HI+ (11fps) camera modes, but in MID (6fps) mode, it flashes a few times, and then stops working - I can hear shutter clicks, but there is no red coming from the LEDs. Worse yet, even the few times that it does flash in the beginning of the sequence are not continuous. This looks like a software bug; I will need to contact Pavel about it.

As far as burst power goes, in LO (3fps) mode, with supercharger and eight brand new (right out of the package, one testing cycle on a charger and two dives) fully charged Eneloop Pro batteries, it can go as high as 50% power continuously. At 75% power, I got one good shot, then a skipped shot (strobe did not fire), then a sequence of reduced power shots. In HI (8fps) mode, 6% power seems to be the sustainable maximum - at 8% power (it's not labeled, but that's the click between 6% and 12%) I got four bright exposures and then sustained flashes at reduced power; at 12% I got two bright exposures and then sustained reduced power.

[stuartv 34]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:46 AM, Barmaglot said:

I did some testing today, and got very odd results. The UWT trigger functions fine in LO (3fps), HI (8fps) and HI+ (11fps) camera modes, but in MID (6fps) mode, it flashes a few times, and then stops working - I can hear shutter clicks, but there is no red coming from the LEDs. Worse yet, even the few times that it does flash in the beginning of the sequence are not continuous. This looks like a software bug; I will need to contact Pavel about it.

As far as burst power goes, in LO (3fps) mode, with supercharger and eight brand new (right out of the package, one testing cycle on a charger and two dives) fully charged Eneloop Pro batteries, it can go as high as 50% power continuously. At 75% power, I got one good shot, then a skipped shot (strobe did not fire), then a sequence of reduced power shots. In HI (8fps) mode, 6% power seems to be the sustainable maximum - at 8% power (it's not labeled, but that's the click between 6% and 12%) I got four bright exposures and then sustained flashes at reduced power; at 12% I got two bright exposures and then sustained reduced power.

 

That is awesome info. Thanks for doing that test. 

I don't think my UWT trigger for the a7rIV has a problem with shooting at MID, but I will have to try it again and see.

[OwenF 4]

[mention=41708]Balage_diver[/mention] has been working with me on this for a bit now. He's found the same things happening as I did. So here ia a little bit of a wrap up!
The A6000x series will not work in mid continuous or high continuous with the Sony Turtle. Neither in TTL or WL/Manual. He had hoped it would be an easy fix but it's not.  So there is no timetable on this. 
Also when using the Turtle in TTL the first frame would be exposed perfectly. Consequently if you fired the camera again quickly the next few frames were typically blown out. Like nuclear. He's ordered a YS-D3 to look further into all this.

So, we at least know the Turtle with 150 leds WILL fire a Sea & Seas YS-D3 Lightning.  Just that there are a few other issues.
Now, I bought this to use in my pool studio to fire FO manually. It does that so I am going to keep it just for that. And will stick to my electronic bulkhead for diving. That fires every time and can even cheat up up the Sony's flash sync to 1/200th.

@ScottAudette I am looking at pushing the button on an A6400 and would appreciate if you are able to elaborate on this.

One intended use for me is photogrammetry. I would usually take a picture (manual exposure & manual strobe) every 1-2 seconds. (I need to check separately if A6400 has in-built intervalometer)

From your testing, would you say the Turtle is capable of functioning in manual/WL, single servo, with an image every 1-2 seconds? This would be a deal breaker on the A6400 for me as I know that in-built flashes struggle to maintain this for +100 images (recycle time not to mention battery life)

I very briefly had a turtle for Nikon, which did appear to do this, however i flooded it on the first dive out!!


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