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Interceptor121

Is IBIS a must for for Underwater Video?

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I have been always looking at camera with IBIS for underwater video. There are some little bumps and movements that cannot be avoided especially for close up handheld work

Recently however many cinema cameras without IBIS have come on the scene BMPCC4/6 ZCAM and some top range canon models like 1DXIII also do not have IBIS as well as Panasonic GH5s

I see lots of footage shot at 60fps and then slowed down to 24/25/30 to mask the instability and wobbles and the difficulty of the diver to hold the camera steady, personally I hate those type of shots as things underwater with some exception do not move fast at all. Water is a liquid after all with dampening effect. I also find that if you need slow motion you would need in excess of 100 better 200 fps to have something really interesting to see

So I wonder in 2021 how people feel about IBIS?

Are there advances in post production have better results than say 3 years ago (from what I can see artefacts show in water but maybe I do not know the latest and greatest software)?

 

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52 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I have been always looking at camera with IBIS for underwater video. There are some little bumps and movements that cannot be avoided especially for close up handheld work

Recently however many cinema cameras without IBIS have come on the scene BMPCC4/6 ZCAM and some top range canon models like 1DXIII also do not have IBIS as well as Panasonic GH5s

I see lots of footage shot at 60fps and then slowed down to 24/25/30 to mask the instability and wobbles and the difficulty of the diver to hold the camera steady, personally I hate those type of shots as things underwater with some exception do not move fast at all. Water is a liquid after all with dampening effect. I also find that if you need slow motion you would need in excess of 100 better 200 fps to have something really interesting to see

So I wonder in 2021 how people feel about IBIS?

Are there advances in post production have better results than say 3 years ago (from what I can see artefacts show in water but maybe I do not know the latest and greatest software)?

 

No IBIS can beat a tripod

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, gobiodon said:

No IBIS can beat a tripod

How do you place a tripod if you are doing a wall dive exactly? In some places it is forbidden to lay anything on the bottom too

Edited by Interceptor121

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55 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

How do you place a tripod if you are doing a wall dive exactly? In some places it is forbidden to lay anything on the bottom too

I guess you don't shoot macro video there (or at least not a good one)

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, gobiodon said:
I guess you don't shoot macro video there (or at least not a good one)

There are plenty of situations where you don’t or can’t use some form of tripod

And in some places you cannot lay anything on the bottom or your dive guide takes you out of the water

IBIS helps for any type of framing close shot that is not macro anyway like your pike scene which is in fact shaky

 

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Edited by Interceptor121

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Posted (edited)

I have become so used to IBIS over the years that I sometimes forget it's even on. It certainly doesn't help much in terms of smoothing movements underwater and IMO I don't think there's as much value/affect underwater as there is topside.

One thing that I have enjoyed recently is that some camera manufacturers now (I shoot Sony) will record gyro data and you can use that gyro data to stabilize your footage in post. I haven't put it to test underwater yet because I don't find a whole lot of need for stabilization, but for topside it has been really impressive to be able to stabilize footage using the gyro data in-post rather than in-camera and dial in exactly how much stabilization you want to use.

Note: I don't shoot macro, only WA.

Edited by rgilkes
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I've been filming without IBIS since GH2 GH3 GH4. No problem at all. Now I have it with my GH5 and it helps a lot on certain kind of shots: I can shot at 35mm with the 12-35mm. It was impossible without IBIS. 

Anyway IBIS is not a substitute of good diving skills and proper filming gear configuration.

I see a lot of people blaming their camera while they really need a diving training or simply to modify their housing trim. Neutral buoyancy it's not enough.

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2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

There are plenty of situations where you don’t or can’t use some form of tripod

And in some places you cannot lay anything on the bottom or your dive guide takes you out of the water

IBIS helps for any type of framing close shot that is not macro anyway like your pike scene which is in fact shaky

  

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I absolutely agree that it helps for most of the standard and wide angle situations (and new digital solutions are not that bad e.g. reel steady for GoPro or the Insta360 One X(R) solutions) , but for macro, it's too little help in my opinion.

Some people also argue that IBIS is important for macro photography, but a strobe is just a much better solution.

 

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For macro you need a tripod FULL STOP

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16 hours ago, Davide DB said:

For macro you need a tripod FULL STOP

If we are talking about real macro frame size of 36mm wide for use

However most videos you see are not real macro they are close up work with frame size between 10 and 30 cm. I can manage those handheld if the conditions are right with IBIS but not without for up to 10-15 seconds

At higher magnification you have all sorts of issue as the depth of field is minimal so if your subject moves you are fried together with your tripod

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

If we are talking about real macro frame size of 36mm wide for use 

However most videos you see are not real macro they are close up work with frame size between 10 and 30 cm. I can manage those handheld if the conditions are right with IBIS but not without for up to 10-15 seconds 

At higher magnification you have all sorts of issue as the depth of field is minimal so if your subject moves you are fried together with your tripod 

 

 

Could you post some examples for handheld close up footages

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Could you post some examples for handheld close up footages

Abu Dabbab 2019 - Filter Matching tests

3:00 onwards
I have done seahorses handheld in 2012 it is possible but hard


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Could you post some examples for handheld close up footages

This is all handheld

4K Diving Puerto Galera 2016



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In my opinion, most of these footages could have been improved by using a tripod.

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22 minutes ago, gobiodon said:

Could you post some examples for handheld close up footages

 

at 30" close-up shots with the Lumix 12-35 (24-70) at 35mm.

It's impossible shooting video @70mm without IBIS

 

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In my opinion, most of these footages could have been improved by using a tripod.

Tripod is not good if the fish moves octopuses and sea horses do that
So the tripod is only good for a nudibranch or for some types of shrimp the rest is always handheld
Hence you need IBIS
On land I use a pan and tilt head for tele work but not for macro that is static tripod but doesn’t work with bees or similar only with flowers
Fish unfortunately swim


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This is a trip where I had a tripod base
However I could only use it for a very small set of shots because the fish would move except frogfish
As long as you follow the parallax of a fish you can shoot handheld is the same on land
Tripod are good for static subjects only when there is sufficient depth of field and therefore the use case is extremely limited

Fly into Lembeh




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1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

If we are talking about real macro frame size of 36mm wide for use

However most videos you see are not real macro they are close up work with frame size between 10 and 30 cm. I can manage those handheld if the conditions are right with IBIS but not without for up to 10-15 seconds

At higher magnification you have all sorts of issue as the depth of field is minimal so if your subject moves you are fried together with your tripod

 

 

We are in the same page.

Anyway kudos to macro works. It's really another sport. I learned the hard way.

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I searched some tripod work (not mine) as a contrast. This is a recent video posted by backscatter:

You can also check the work by Ewan Sherman, which is mainly tripod work (just an example below)

https://www.seasickproductions.com/bali-close-up

Best examples you can find in the movies by Howard Hall

http://www.howardhall.com/short-videos/

For me those videos are way superior than your handheld footages. I agree that tripod cannot be used for many things and most of the time is impractical, probably the success rate is very low, but when it works the results are much much better.

 

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39 minutes ago, gobiodon said:

In my opinion, most of these footages could have been improved by using a tripod.

All of my shots are far away from shore at 70-90 meter deep. Most of the time no way to use a tripod.

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2 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

All of my shots are far away from shore at 70-90 meter deep. Most of the time no way to use a tripod.

For such deep dives tripod is surely not an option (I still can imagine that some crazy filmcrew would try it)

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, gobiodon said:


Thanks for comparing me to Howard Hall those guys have budgets they are in a different game

For what concerns backscatter video that is the classic issue with macro video a set of static shots which for me are well taken but boring. I rather take some photos and do a slide show.

This is the reason why I never ever dive with a macro lens. You can't prepare the scene and do anything different than 1 shot. I prefer to take photos instead of 5 seconds of video with no action in it. 

It is nice to have a critter but from those videos a normal person would not even know if this is big small where does it live? It is very technical for people in the sector and after a bit of excitement it goes away

If you have a lot of time what works is to go on the same scene and try all sorts of shots and then combine them

 

Edited by Interceptor121

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Posted (edited)

This is my macro rig but I would only rig something like that when I know there is going to be some bottom I can lay it on

Even so when I have an octopus or fish that swims I cannot really use it so it becomes an hindrance if you are not careful

https://interceptor121.com/panasonic-gh5/macro-video/

Edited by Interceptor121

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16 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:


Thanks for comparing me to Howard Hall those guys have budgets they are in a different game 

For what concerns backscatter video that is the classic issue with macro video a set of static shots which for me are well taken but boring. I rather take some photos and do a slide show.

This is the reason why I never ever dive with a macro lens. You can't prepare the scene and do anything different than 1 shot. I prefer to take photos instead of 5 seconds of video with no action in it.  

It is nice to have a critter but from those videos a normal person would not even know if this is big small where does it live? It is very technical for people in the sector and after a bit of excitement it goes away

If you have a lot of time what works is to go on the same scene and try all sorts of shots and then combine them

 

As I remember from the Behind the mask interview with Ewan Sherman he used an inferior camera than you use. The TG-6 is really not that high-end.

I mentioned Howard Hall, because of the approach. Sure he is in a different league and his budget for a project is way beyond our ones, but the tripod cost is a negligible part.

It’s also the matter of personal preference. Some people find those static footages boring while I really enjoy them. Today in the ages of Tik-Tok and Instagram reels those long static footages by Howard Hall seems to be extreme slow and for many, especially for the young generations, boring.

Another thing is the way of doing videography. Tripod work is not compatible with the standard diving with a group.

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31 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

This is my macro rig but I would only rig something like that when I know there is going to be some bottom I can lay it on

Even so when I have an octopus or fish that swims I cannot really use it so it becomes an hindrance if you are not careful

https://interceptor121.com/panasonic-gh5/macro-video/

It looks like a perfect macro rig

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