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juanmag

Canon m6 mark ii or 90D or 7D mark ii

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Hi there again ...this time im asking for some advice  to my upgrade. I currently have a canon 7d, wich is a 2009 camera and i think its time to me to upgrade..and i was looking some of this 3 option, the canon m6 mark 2, the canon 90d or the canon 7d mark2...as u see im a canon shooter..but as well im open to other brands..the things is i already have the lenses

So anyone tried any of these cameras underwater ?..any opinion?..the m6 mark2 looks good but i really didnt see any underwater photography  of it..i know as well theres no much option for the housing,, i yhink is just ikelite or sea frogs..the EV its good...its the recycle time of the flash good?..i shoot fiber optics..can i control.the output of the flash?..iq is good?..the tokina 10 17. Canon 60mm ..work good with adapter?...

The canon 90 d i know as well have little option for housing, as well ikelite and i think nimar?..i see its maybe an upgrade for the canon 7d mark2 but i hear its autofucos its not that good as the 7d 2...

And the canon 7d mark 2 i know have a little bit more option for housings..but less resolution..how iq is compare to the other 2...is the oldest of the threes..it permormed better in low light conditions or not?..

Anyway ill appreciatte any adviced, opinion, or guidlines..

Everyone have a good sunday..( and sorry.if theres some confution on the redaction , english its not my first language)

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APS-C seems a bit of an orphan child for Canon these days and even more so for the mirrorless models and this is reflected in housing availability I think.

Rather than start with a camera model tell us your budget and possibly preferred housing brand  and what ports you have and the lenses you currently use?  Start with what you shoot and work backwards from there is generally a better approach - are you looking at macro - wide angle - fisheye for a start.

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Hi chriss ..thanks for the reply..as lenses i own a 20 mm sigma ,  Tokina 10 17, and tokina 11-16 , canon mount all of them, With 8" aquatica dome.(and 2 sea&sea ys 110a strobes) .thinking in buyin 4" dome and tc 1.4x...and .the canon 60 mm macro , and macro port will add a little bit later..im shooting with an aquatica housing right now..im happy with it ..but i would consider other housing brands as well, a little bit cheaper as well :) .

on the budget side im more lean to buy used gear, but trying to upgrade from my canon 7d..wich i was hapoy with it , but i feel already uts time to upgrade definitly.

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10 hours ago, juanmag said:

Hi chriss ..thanks for the reply..as lenses i own a 20 mm sigma ,  Tokina 10 17, and tokina 11-16 , canon mount all of them, With 8" aquatica dome.(and 2 sea&sea ys 110a strobes) .thinking in buyin 4" dome and tc 1.4x...and .the canon 60 mm macro , and macro port will add a little bit later..im shooting with an aquatica housing right now..im happy with it ..but i would consider other housing brands as well, a little bit cheaper as well :) .

on the budget side im more lean to buy used gear, but trying to upgrade from my canon 7d..wich i was hapoy with it , but i feel already uts time to upgrade definitly.

If you are on a budget and have quite a bit of gear already in the way of lenses I can see the attraction of not going too different - though you only have one port which should be easy to sell if it came to it so flexibility is reasonable for housing choice.  I think the 7D II is also getting on a bit - it had a good reputation for AF , but no so good on image quality if you pushed the ISO. 

If you are buying used gear you may have to take what you can get, it seems that Canon APS-C is less popular than it used to be and the models catered for are not as numerous and it seems the last higher end model a lot of housings were made for is the 80D.   You'll notice Canon is slowly abandoning it as well with the 7D-II not being replaced and the M series mirroless are somewhat of an orphan as well, I believe the 90D will also not be replaced and also the Canon 60mm macro lens and a number of other APS-C lenses  are also discontinued.

You mention going cheaper than Aquatica and basically your only real option is ikelite or some of the more uncommon brands.  Isotta doesn't seem to have any Canon APS-C models.   Ikelite of course can house a great many cameras as they use a couple of universal housing boxes and a custom drilled back so their setup cost is lower - just be wary of the small housings for the basic Canon DSLR's which need a zoom knob on the port and as a consequence port choice is limited.  They are competitively priced and while many people are happy to use them you will find the functionality is not always as good as higher end housings.

I would add that the Olympus 20MP m43 sensor is more than a match for Canon APS-C and lenses and ports are significantly cheaper and housing choice is wider as well.  You might also consider a second hand system of this nature if one came up. 

All this doesn't really help you narrow down your choice - more to understand potential limitations if you stay with Canon APS_C.

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Hi chris..thanks a lot for the data and your poin of view. In fact i a was looking for the olympus m43 as well but smaller sensor it git me thinking...i dont know..as well i like to print so im looking for a camara with resolution to print..anyway ..im still a little bit lose, but im sure time will fix that hehe..the only thing sure right now its i need to upgrade...thanks a lot again chris

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11 hours ago, juanmag said:

Hi chris..thanks a lot for the data and your poin of view. In fact i a was looking for the olympus m43 as well but smaller sensor it git me thinking...i dont know..as well i like to print so im looking for a camara with resolution to print..anyway ..im still a little bit lose, but im sure time will fix that hehe..the only thing sure right now its i need to upgrade...thanks a lot again chris

One thing to be aware of is that the costs of UW setups tend to scale with sensor size - in aluminium housings the larger format housings are more expensive and they tend to need larger ports to support rectilinear lenses.  Fisheye and macro are easier to house of course.  If you wanted to go with a WWL which is becoming a popular choice, they can be used only with certain lenses which means you are looking at SONY or micr043, there are no identified lenses that will work with a WWL for APS-C. 

As for printing the 20MP sensors will print natively a 44 x 32cm image or more or less A3 at 300 dpi and will certainly produce nice prints  larger than that with some re-sizing and slightly lower dpi settings.  You will be at base ISO for many UW imaging situations so noise is much less of an issue and in any case as I said performance of the Olympus 20MP sensor is very close indeed to the Nikon D500 and better than the many of the Canon chips if you look at test data.

I would suggest rather than picking a camera upfront look at the total system you would need to take the photos you want.  I guess you already know which lenses you use the most currently so look at costs to house alternatives vs housing an APS-C DSLR.

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Hi juanmag

As always Chris makes lots of excellent points.

Having taken the APS-C to FF and back to APS-C route, I can certainly vouch from personal experience that going to FF is very tough on a budget and increases significantly the bulk and weight of the gear you have to move. Buyer beware! 

I have no experience of the m43 formats but lots of folks, including Chris, rate it highly. 

It maybe worth asking yourself one question though: why do you think your current camera body needs upgrading? Is it the AF lacks something? Do you really need more megapixels? As Chris points out, 20MB is plenty. I use a D500 with 24MB and that is loads as well. Unless you are doing really high end advertising or want massive prints, that 20-24MB range is plenty. What is the issue. Maybe it's just wearing out!

I think we all get hung-up on camera body upgrades (and I'm as guilty as the next photographer) but, honestly, changing camera bodies does not make that much difference to your end product - unless as I suggest, you can identify something that is stopping you capturing the images that you want. It's having the right lens, the right lighting and, frankly, the right eye for composition that really makes the difference.

I have no idea whether the Canon 7D is way past it or whether yours is grinding to a halt. As I suggest, it might be worth asking yourself first what is wrong with it; then adding that answer to the questions Chris suggests you pose: what lenses, what subjects - and then figuring out what best can deliver that for you and at what cost.

 

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3 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

If you wanted to go with a WWL which is becoming a popular choice, they can be used only with certain lenses which means you are looking at SONY or micr043, there are no identified lenses that will work with a WWL for APS-C.  

Nauticam charts for WWL-1 and WWL-C include Nikon Z DX 16-50mm, Fujifilm XC 15-45, XF 18mm and XF 23mm and Canon EF-M 15-45 and 22mm. The limitation for WWLs is in full-frame rather than APS-C - the only full-frame lenses supported are Sony 28-60mm and Sony-Zeiss 35mm f/2.8.

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1 hour ago, Barmaglot said:

Nauticam charts for WWL-1 and WWL-C include Nikon Z DX 16-50mm, Fujifilm XC 15-45, XF 18mm and XF 23mm and Canon EF-M 15-45 and 22mm. The limitation for WWLs is in full-frame rather than APS-C - the only full-frame lenses supported are Sony 28-60mm and Sony-Zeiss 35mm f/2.8.

I forgot about the M lenses, it's Canon EF/EF-S and Nikon F where there are no suitable lenses.  I think it will be interesting to see if Canon's M line continues.

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Hi TimG..

Well.my canon 7d its an 18 mp camera from 2009..more than 10 years old..im trying to get a little better of image quality..i can see others.pics.from.other photographers..using 20mp more modern cameras..and IQ its better, ..i have been watching the m43 option..like the omd em 5 mark iii..wath just i dont know its sensor.size and IQ..and printing option..cuz i wanna start printing...i really dont know much about them..as well iv been watching the sony a6500, wich is an apcs 24mp..if im not worng..the thing about the sony that i dont know its lenses option, and flash sync1/160 ..just...anyway,is this feeling in my guts (i know tim, maybe its wath your saying "that we all get  hung-up on camera body upgrades"), something thats it telling its time to an upgrade(lets be clear ..not a crazy upgrade..) to a better IQ..

Thanks TimG for taking the time to reply..

 

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4 hours ago, juanmag said:

Hi TimG..

Well.my canon 7d its an 18 mp camera from 2009..more than 10 years old..im trying to get a little better of image quality..i can see others.pics.from.other photographers..using 20mp more modern cameras..and IQ its better, ..i have been watching the m43 option..like the omd em 5 mark iii..wath just i dont know its sensor.size and IQ..and printing option..cuz i wanna start printing...i really dont know much about them..as well iv been watching the sony a6500, wich is an apcs 24mp..if im not worng..the thing about the sony that i dont know its lenses option, and flash sync1/160 ..just...anyway,is this feeling in my guts (i know tim, maybe its wath your saying "that we all get  hung-up on camera body upgrades"), something thats it telling its time to an upgrade(lets be clear ..not a crazy upgrade..) to a better IQ..

Thanks TimG for taking the time to reply..

 

I think the unfortunate truth is that APS-C particularly with Canon is a little neglected and it has really only inched forward in image quality since the 7D.  I think things like AF and frames per second have gone up but image quality between the best camera on the DXO database in Canon APS_C and your 7D has improved maybe 0.7 - 1 stop in noise over that time and dynamic range only at low ISO.  On straight test scores the EM-1 MkII equals or betters both of these cameras.

This is comparing the 7D to the M-100, the most recent  APS-C DSLR in the database, the 77D is closer to the the 7D than the M-100.  You can compare the curves here:  https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-7D-versus-Olympus-OM-D-E-M1-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-M100___619_1136_1179

click on the measurements tab then look through the SNR/dynamic range/colour sensitivity tabs to compare the cameras.  Sony and Nikon will be a little better in IQ compared to the EM-1 MkII.  But there really is not a huge improvement, much of it is in colour sensitivity - this may be where you are seeing deficiency perhaps?   

If you were to upgrade there is not a lot to pick between the more recent sensors in m43- APS-C in terms of of image quality and I would look at suitable UW lens availability and cost and control features.

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I moved from the 7D in a Nauticam housing to an Olympus OMD-EM1 Mark II also in Nauticam. I took both on an Indonesia Liveaboard trip and during photo sessions asked other divers to compare shots blind. There was no difference mostly but a bit of a preference for the Olympus photos. Every year LAUPS (well not this year) has a booth at the Long Beach Scuba show. We combined with Orange County UPS have a booth where there are at least 80 photos from cameras ranging from P&S to D850, and everything in between, but predominantly Canon 5DIV, Nikon D850, D500, and Olympus micro 4/3. I do all the printing for both groups and print at 16x20 inches (406 x 508 mm for those of you not familiar with US Customary Units) and all formats print beautifully. The biggest differences between the photos is the skill of the photographer rather than the format.  I have not tried to print much larger (a larger printer for my house would come with a divorce attorney I suspect) but at that size the Olympus EM1 Mark II is perfectly fine.

 

Cheers

Bill

 

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1 hour ago, bvanant said:

I moved from the 7D in a Nauticam housing to an Olympus OMD-EM1 Mark II also in Nauticam. I took both on an Indonesia Liveaboard trip and during photo sessions asked other divers to compare shots blind. There was no difference mostly but a bit of a preference for the Olympus photos. Every year LAUPS (well not this year) has a booth at the Long Beach Scuba show. We combined with Orange County UPS have a booth where there are at least 80 photos from cameras ranging from P&S to D850, and everything in between, but predominantly Canon 5DIV, Nikon D850, D500, and Olympus micro 4/3. I do all the printing for both groups and print at 16x20 inches (406 x 508 mm for those of you not familiar with US Customary Units) and all formats print beautifully. The biggest differences between the photos is the skill of the photographer rather than the format.  I have not tried to print much larger (a larger printer for my house would come with a divorce attorney I suspect) but at that size the Olympus EM1 Mark II is perfectly fine.

 

Cheers

Bill

 

Thanks Bill, that matches my experience printing from both Canon and Olympus cameras on my large format printer (Epson P800)

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Thanks Bill for for tellling us your first hand experience, it is quite claryfing with certain doubts of mine about all this...

So your not at all regreat about your upgrading to the oly em mark ii from the 7d..


 

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No regret, especially traveling (what is that?). It is very interesting to see what often happens on a typical liveaboard. The guy with the biggest/fanciest camera system is given lots of love, sometimes even better guides. In some cases this is justified but in many cases when the first few days photos get shared people's preconceptions change. 

So yes I have no regrets, I am very happy with the OM-D EM-1 MII and would not be tempted to move back to either FF or APS-C.  The system is far better than I am.

Bill

 

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On 11/20/2021 at 5:31 PM, ChrisRoss said:

Thanks Bill, that matches my experience printing from both Canon and Olympus cameras on my large format printer (Epson P800)

Do you like the P800? I have been looking for a replacement for my Canon printer.

Bill

 

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3 hours ago, bvanant said:

Do you like the P800? I have been looking for a replacement for my Canon printer.

Bill

 

Yes, it's a nice printer, fairly economical on ink and does not seem prone to clogging - touch wood.  I fired it up after maybe a year without using it and it printed perfectly.  You do need flat paper to avoid head strikes as it doesn't have a vacuum system.  I end up reverse curling A4 sheets around a glass bottle before loading.  The printed result is very nice.

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Might consider a APS-C sony a6600 and use a converter to use some of your canon lenses?

 

I shoot an a6400 in a nauticam housing, with my tokina 10-17 on an adapter and it works great. Would save you from repurchasing a bunch of lenses, although you may have to do some digging on ports and extensions. 

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I currently shoot the Canon EOS M6 ii (since Dec 2019). I have both the Ikelite and the Seafrogs housings. Before the M6 ii, I had Canon G7x ii and before that the first Olympus OMD EM5 and before that the EPL-5.

I use the following lenses on the EOS M6 ii underwater:

Canon EF-S 60mm macro (80% of all my dives)
Nauticam CMC-1
Laowa 65mm 2x macro
Canon EF-M 11-22mm
Tokina EF-S 10-17mm (Got that used here.)
I used the 6" dome for both these lenses but the 8" is better for the Tokina.

To address your questions:
1) yes, I have used the EOS M6 ii underwater a lot, more than 300 dives.
2) I like it but I also think there are better options in 2021 as opposed to 2019
3) I shoot strobes on full manual. If you set the on camera flash to minimum power, I feel you can get off a couple of shots per second
4) I think the IQ is very good. Not as good as FF but better than my G7x ii
5) I have the Canon adapter for EF lenses and it works great with both the 60mm macro and 10-17mm Tokina

If you are on a budget, I think the Olympus EPL-10 packages are really great value.  I also used to have YS-110a. One finally died last year and I gave away the other. I would seriously consider a whole package super deal from the classifieds.
 

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