Davide DB 484 Posted January 19, 2022 Canon announced a cinema version of its EOS R5. Specs 45mp full-frame sensor, similar to EOS R5 Photo/Video Switch Changes Settings Menu JPEG/C-RAW, 12-Bit Cinema RAW Light Dual Pixel CMOS AF with Eye Detection NO IBIS Micro HDMI Canon Log 3 Lacks Internal NDs Unlimited 8K30P recording in Cinema RAW Light. XF-AVC and MP4 Timecode in/out Multipurpose hot shoe Active cooling 3/8″ or 1/4″ mounting point on the EVF for a top handle. Full-size HDMI Port CFexpress Type-B and SD UHS-II Slots Dual-Slot Record, Unlimited Record Time Timecode DIN Port, Multi-Function Shoe 4-Channel Audio Record with XLR Adapter 13 Reassignable Buttons Cooling fan. $4500 that would be 4500 € in the magic exchange world of IT. (Less than I thought). Canon PR dept is working at full force and the internet is already full of minireview and so on. Let's see how long Nauticam takes to announce its housing. https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/cinema-eos/eos-r5-c 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 20, 2022 Lack of the rumoured 8k60 and IBIS makes this kinda "meh" compared to the already capable r5? It only solves the overheating issue, which I think most people using the R5 underwater don't really see as a limitation? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Hi Andrei, I'm eating popcorn while watching people fight on the internet over this camera. Like Sony, the marketing departments have off-the-charts firepower and they are pushing at full force. Almost impossible to find a unbiased review on YouTube. The war is basically over a few features and lack of IBIS is the most divisive feature. The two opinions are: It's a cinema machine so IBIS isn't needed. The C70 doesn't have it either. But the C70 has built-in ND filters. On the other hand if it's a Cinema camera why does it have a micro hdmi output? Other people say it is a camera for those who work alone and need to take photos and videos at the same time (run & gun how they call it). But in this case I don't understand how you can have a camera without IBIS in 2022. Even for video (for example weddings) it's difficult to think of working without IBIS. Add also another feature that Canon bloggers are trying to pass off as a killer feature instead of a bull***t: video and photo are implemented as two different camera with a switch. the camera does a real reboot in about 9 seconds to switch from photo to video and vice versa. I personally agree more with the second opinion. I think that for run & gun the R5 is the perfect machine and if you only do video.... I don't know. One thing is for sure, they will sell them like hot cookies. It's always been that way with Canon products. Two other things: the machine has a fan. I couldn't tell if it maintains waterproofing. The Pana S1H has a fan and is totally waterproof. A little engineering masterpiece. (EDIT: Canon says it will maintains dust and waterproofing) It seems that the machine is capable of using the internal battery up to 8K@50p while for 60p it needs an external power supply via USB-C. Strange feature! For underwater use we always come back to the usual point: is it really essential to have IBIS? I open another box of Popcorn... Edited January 20, 2022 by Davide DB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRoss 150 Posted January 20, 2022 52 minutes ago, Davide DB said: I'm eating popcorn while watching people fight on the internet over this camera. too good a camera launch as a spectator sport! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 20, 2022 3 hours ago, ChrisRoss said: too good a camera launch as a spectator sport! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimG 62 Posted January 20, 2022 52 minutes ago, Davide DB said: And the popcorn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 21, 2022 16 hours ago, TimG said: And the popcorn? Only IBIS equipped popcorn canister allowed 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darth mollusk 4 Posted January 21, 2022 I am currently shooting underwater with the R5 and shoot 8K RAW when I feel I might need more flexibility in post – particularly for white balance. But in most situations I also prefer shooting at 60 fps... and lose that option at 8K. It would be great to have the option to shoot 5K RAW at 60 fps (added bonus: smaller file size) – that's the only advantage the R5c has that I find interesting. Was also hoping the size difference was going to be small enough I might fit the R5c in an R5 housing – but that's clearly never going to happen. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 21, 2022 Do you have something to see online? Two cameras, same housing happens once in a blue moon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darth mollusk 4 Posted January 21, 2022 Haven't posted much online recently – but I do have some video (mostly photos) up on Instagram: www.instagram.com/markus.thalassia re: blue moon – agreed, it was a slim hope that I could have an R5 / R5c setup similar to the Nikon Z6 / Z7. I shoot as much above water as I do below, and it would be so nice to have an R5 that's not vacuumed into a housing when wildlife shows up between dives... maybe this is the excuse I need when the R5ii shows up 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 21, 2022 Apparently I spoke too soon about 8k60 missing in action. It certainly makes the camera more interesting and it (along with internal 5k60 raw in aps-c crop) make this a top hybrid option in my view. 60fps is the sweet spot for underwater shooting in my view. 120fps is rarely needed, and 24/25/30 fps is sometimes too slow when capturing nice animal behavior shots. As someone who wants a camera capable of great photos and video underwater (read, full frame) I would say the R5 C and the new Nikon z9 are now at the top of my list for potential Gh5 replacements - finally! I have pre-ordered one from B&H and also have a z9 order.. let's see which ships first My quick summary of the options out there for hybrid shooters and pros/cons: Canon R5 C Pros: 8k60 and 5k60 (aps-c) crop internal raw (but.. big file sizes) 4k30 AND 4k60 XF-AVC both downsampled from 8k sensor in full frame or from 5k in APS-C crop So you get 90% of the resolution of 8k in a much more space and edit-friendly video format. This adds huge versitity in my view, combined with Canon's excellent underwater white balance Canon cinema menus allows for easy 1-button WB in video mode.. finally! Can output 8k raw (at 60p?) to Atmos Ninja 5+ for more flexible prores raw workflow with cheaper media costs $4499 price tag is cheaper than Sony A1 and Nikon Z9 alternatives Canon R5 C Cons Limited dynamic range in video vis-a-vis competitors (if no improvement over R5). Canon R5 has about ~11 stops, Canon R3 & Nikon z9 ~12 stops, and Sony A1/A7SIII /Canon C70/Panasonic S1H ~13 stops according to CineD testing. If the dynamic range is improved over the R5, then I think this easily becomes the best option. No IBIS. We can debate if IBIS is really necessary for underwater, but a lot also depends on the trim of the housing. If Nauticam makes a cinema-style well-trimmed, neutral housing for this (rather than their typical photo-style housings), that could mitigate many of the IBIS concerns. I'm really curious to see what style of housing Nauticam settles on, and whether it'll allow for an external battery pack inside the housing for 8k60p 9 second reboot when switching between photo and video. Not great if you're trying to capture animal behavior in both photos and videos. I prefer the instant switch all the other cameras have 1/200 flash sync isn't the best Sony A1 Pros Best dynamic range in video at ~13 stops Smallest and easiest h.265 10-bit 4:2:0 file format to edit in 8k 1/400 sync speed for photos (and 30fps at 50mpixels) Sony A1 Cons no 8k/60 -- but perhaps could be added by firmware? If Sony adds this, even with recording limits, the A1 would rise to the top of my list No internal or external raw in 8k - again, could be added with firmware update? Underwater WB is good, but Canon remains the gold standard Most expensive at $6500 Fisheye lens options need to be mounted from the front in Nauticam housings because of the n100-n120 adapter. Annoying. Nikon Z9 Pros Supposedly will eventually get 8k60 internal? prores? raw decent (but not class-leading) dynamic range in video at ~12 stops Nikon z9 Cons/Unknowns Has IBIS, but how smooth will it be for underwater? 1/200 flash sync speed How good will the WB be underwater? I wasn't a huge fan of the underwater colour science on the d850 for video. Canon R3 Pros 6k60 fps in raw video -- goldilocks resolution and frame rate? ~12 stops dynamic range, an improvement over the R5 Canon R3 Cons 1/180 flash sync speed Only 24mpix resolution for photos Expensive at $6000 I think at this stage the Panasonic S1H/S1 don't offer anything compelling compared to the above options. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 21, 2022 Remember that 8K@60p can be achieved only with external power/battery. It will depends on Nauticam solution. Why you did not take in account the C70? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 22, 2022 I excluded the c70 because I want (a) a camera that's also great for underwater photography (b) with a full frame sensor and (c) higher video resolution than 4k for wildlife footage. If pure cinema cameras were in the running, I would probably look at the ZCam f6 as better value than the c70 anyway. Some interesting tidbits from the R5 C manual: X-sync Speed Mechanical Shutter: 1/200 sec. Elec. 1st-curtain: 1/250 sec. Minimum video file sizes Raw 8k LT: 2570 Mbps (59.94P) / 1030 Mbps (23.98P/24.00P) Raw 5k LT: 1360 Mbps (59.94P) / 544 Mbps (23.98P/24.00P)(*) XF-AVC 4:2:2 10bit 4K DCI Long GOP: 260 Mbps (59.94P) / 160 Mbps (23.98P/24.00P) (This is probably the most practical format) There is no 8k60p h.264/h.265 recording option, only in 30p. I believe that you can record up to 8k50p using the internal battery and even 8k60p on internal battery alone, but it stops transfering power to the lens, so no electronic aperture or focus adjustments are possible. (I couldn't find this in the manual, but the DPReview review mentioned it) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lars2923 0 Posted January 22, 2022 So far, I am underwhelmed by the product. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 22, 2022 While I recognize that without early adopters we don't move forward, on this camera I'd rather wait to get some real feedback. I definitely don't trust all these reviews from people who signed a ton of NDAs to get the camera body before launch and are part of a small circle of Canon friends. [panasonic fan boy mode on] I understand that the lure of the Canon sirens is powerful but frankly an S1H does exactly the same things except for 8K and AF. I imagine the next iteration will tick off both items. [panasonic fan boy mode off]. One thing I love about Canon: its color science it's the best for underwater filming. You really can recognize Canon colors. That being said, all the latest launches are really out of my budget. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 22, 2022 6 hours ago, Davide DB said: [panasonic fan boy mode on] I understand that the lure of the Canon sirens is powerful but frankly an S1H does exactly the same things except for 8K and AF. I imagine the next iteration will tick off both items. [panasonic fan boy mode off]. Budget is definitely a valid concern here, but I really disagree that the S1H remains competitive. It was good for what it was 2 years ago when it came out, but in my view it has some major disadvantages today vis-a-vis the Canon R5/R5 C/R3, Sony A1/A7SIII/A7IV and the Nikon z9. No internal raw of any sort Unusable AFC in video60 Neither the resolution nor the frame rate of the newer cameras - no 8k resolution, 6k limited to 30p in full frame mode, no 4k 60 except in APS-C crop, no 4k120. It also still sells for $3700, which is not far off from the Canon R5's $3900 price point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 22, 2022 I misspoke. I'm not comparing the SH1 to the others you mentioned. I'm saying that starting with the S1H and adding 8K and a PDAF autofocus (so I'm talking about a future iteration) this hypothetical camera would be in the top 3 videocameras. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 22, 2022 Yeah, I agree with that Davide -- if only Panasonic would get around to building something with a faster sensor and PDAF :). But seems the hypothetical camera you're talking about if you took an S1H, added 8k and PDAF is essentially the R5 C (with internal raw and canon colors), so.. why wait? If/when Panasonic makes a competitive S2H, I bet it's going to be just as expensive as the Canon and unlikely to beat it on specs. At best, they'll keep the IBIS, which would be a nice option to have. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRoss 150 Posted January 23, 2022 I suspect a sensor mounted on a big heatsink and IBIS may be mutually exclusive. If you want to remove heat from a sensor so it can have extended shooting times it needs to be bonded to a heat sink to transfer the heat away so the fan can disperse it. The IBIS relies upon the sensor being very light - low inertia so it can be moved very rapidly to compensate for camera motion. The heat sink would make this more challenging. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 23, 2022 At the moment, yes. AFAIK even the Z9 has no IBIS in 8K mode. But it' there at 4K. 8K is really a newcomer in today hybrid cameras and IMHO nearly a gimmick. I guess we will have to wait for the next iteration for something better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted January 23, 2022 Speaking about underwater Canon colors IMHO this is a good example. Of course kudos to this talented guy. P.S. For those applauding for every log video of an A7S I-II-III-IV, this is a 2013 EOS 1D-C. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted January 23, 2022 17 hours ago, ChrisRoss said: I suspect a sensor mounted on a big heatsink and IBIS may be mutually exclusive. If you want to remove heat from a sensor so it can have extended shooting times it needs to be bonded to a heat sink to transfer the heat away so the fan can disperse it. The IBIS relies upon the sensor being very light - low inertia so it can be moved very rapidly to compensate for camera motion. The heat sink would make this more challenging. (This could be completely wrong as I'm not an electrical engineer, but I do know just about enough about semiconductors to be dangereus..) Based on my understanding the Canon R5 C (and basically all other video/hybrid cameras with active cooling, AFAIK), it's not the CMOS photo sensor itself that's mounted to a heat sink, it's the processor. The heat isn't generated by the CMOS photo sensor, it's generated by the media processor that needs to process and encode 8k at 60p and handle all the autofocus calculations and so on. So there wouldn't be any physical limitation to having IBIS and a heat sink for the media processor, it's just that Canon has decided that for most video use cases, professionals would prefer a non-stabilized sensor since it's less likely to produce artefacts. This is an interesting video on the topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreifish 362 Posted April 11, 2022 Damn.. I was super-excited about the R5 C and finally last week B&H Photo shipped my pre-order, so I now have not one, but two camera bodies. Of course, I quickly looked to see if a housing is available. And found this https://www.nauticam.com/products/na-r5c-housing-for-canon-eos-r5-c-camera $ 7,129.00. Has it been officially annouced? No details on the website yet, but what could possibly justify 2x the price of other Nauticam SLR housings? If Nikon didn't have such terrible underwater white balance (purple everywhere, like OG Sony bodies pre A7S III/A9), I'd be looking at the Z9 again. The Z9 housing is also $ 7,223.00 It's like Nauticam's decided that anything with 8k60p capabilities merits a 2x price increase. At this price point, it's competing with real cinema cameras like a C70 or even Red V-Raptor. Why Nauticam, Why?! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Doe II 16 Posted April 12, 2022 Because they can and they are GOING too. 9 hours ago, dreifish said: Why Nauticam, Why?! Because they can and they are GOING too ! Maybe Seacam will come out with something. Will be a similar price but Seacam quality. Nauticam prices have escalated rather Sharpley lately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davide DB 484 Posted April 12, 2022 Andrei, I completely agree with you. Here are some of my personal considerations. A housing is an accessory of a camera and unfortunately its price has always been proportional to the price of the camera body, regardless of its possible complexity. Nauticam is adapting. There is an increase in the price of raw materials worldwide. Aluminum has increased by 50% in one year. Actually, the cost of the material in something as complex as an underwater housing I think affects virtually nothing. But Nauticam has increased the price of all its housings. The original GH5 cost less than 3000 euros. The GH5SV and GH6 4000 euros. For comparison, the new Aquatica GH6 costs 3000 euros. IMHO Nauticam is reaping the benefits of becoming a market monopolist. It's a shame that this all comes immediately after I sold all my ports and lenses and switching to WWL and CMC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
