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jplaurel

Solving the Mixed Light Problem

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4 hours ago, dreifish said:

My Lee Half CTB, Full CTB and 2 CTB filters have arrived, along with a whole swatch of Rosco filters. So I did some more testing with interesting results:

1. The LEE CTB filters aren't as good as I hoped. They increase the color temperture (I.e. introduce a lot of blue) but don't introduce enough green into the light to match underwater ambient light. Results:

  • No Filter = 4750K, +14 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Half CTB = 7550K, +6 Magenta, 2/3 stops light lost
  • Full CTB = 21000K, +7 Magenta, 1 1/3 stops light lost
  • 2x Full CTB = 50000K +12 Magenta, 2 stops light lost (in fact, 50000K was not sufficient to restore neutral color -- I had to dial down blue saturation to -100 in Lightroom)

2. From the Rosco filters, I tried the Cyan 30 (#4330), Cyan 60 (#4360), Cyan 90 (#4390) and Storaro Cyan (#2005). Interstingly, the Cyan 30 perfectly matched the DivePro F01C filter. I'm guessing this would be good at around 3-5m depth to match ambient light?

  • No Filter = 4750K, +14 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Cyan 30/DivePro F01C = 6600k , +67 Magenta, 1/3 stops light lost
  • Cyan 60 = 8600k, +116 Magneta, 2/3 stops light lost
  • Cyan 90 = 12250K, +150 Magneta, 1 1/3 stops light lost
  • Storaro Cyan = 13250K, +150 Magneta, 2 stops light lost (in fact, +150 magneta was not sufficient to restore neutral color. I had to dial down Aqua saturation -100 and Orange saturation -100 in Lightroom to get rid of the remaining color cast)

 

Based on above testing, I think the Cyan 60 might be a pretty good start for matching ambient light at 6-9 meters. Cyan 90 for 9-12 meters. Not really worth using the Storaro Cyan or the 2x Full CTB.

Next up -- testing combinations of Cyan 60/90 + Half CTB/Full CTB. Cyan 60 +  Half CTB should create interesting results.

Looks like @Interceptor121 did some testing with Cyan 60 gels on his strobes a few years back with good results: https://interceptor121.com/2019/09/29/creative-strobe-filters-for-wide-angle/. He also did some testing with custom filters for his DivePro lights in 2019 with nice results at 9 meters depth. Results at 18m don't look so great in my view. But he doesn't specify which filter he used on the lights.

 

that is a straight out of camera version this was the corrected version

Ultimately taking multiple filters on a dive is a PITA so I settle for an intermediate depth the lights will be a bit warmer deeper than the ideal range but that is better than having a strong filter for shallow water

Ultimately below 18 meters filters are not a solution consider that I use a filter on the lens too

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7 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

that is a straight out of camera version this was the corrected version

Ultimately taking multiple filters on a dive is a PITA so I settle for an intermediate depth the lights will be a bit warmer deeper than the ideal range but that is better than having a strong filter for shallow water

Ultimately below 18 meters filters are not a solution consider that I use a filter on the lens too

Do you just end up using Cyan 60 filters on your video lights, @Interceptor121?

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1 hour ago, dreifish said:

Do you just end up using Cyan 60 filters on your video lights, @Interceptor121?

It depends on the water. I have not been in any decent visibility for some time now and I have even forgot what I have however if my memory does not fail I use a cyan 90 on strobes and something different from rosco on video lights but I do not remember what it is. I have a few rolls in the loft. Cyan 60 is ok for most midwater situations, the same with keldan i never used their deeper water filters because the camera does not white balance well at depth

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2022 at 8:01 PM, dreifish said:

Please take some photos with the bare light and with the light + blue filter to measure the color temperature (mired shift) :)

Hi Dreifish - Sorry for the delay. Yes, I'll do that with the Keldan 4x with and without the cyan filter. I can also do it with the Luna 8 with both the 5600K CRI96 heads and the 30,000K cyan heads. Based on what Daniel Keller told me, I expect the exact same result. The Keldans should provide a definitive reference. Actually, I have a color meter that should provide an exact measurement.

Edited by jplaurel
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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2022 at 2:40 PM, dreifish said:

Interesting, JP. So are you suggesting that the AF-12B filters from Keldan more or less produce the same light temperature/quality as the old 30k cyan heads? 

 

Yes, I specifically asked Daniel Keller this question and he said that a 4X (and presumably the 8X as well) with the AF-12B was the exact same light as the old 30k Luna 8 cyan heads.

Edited by jplaurel

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On 5/7/2022 at 9:02 AM, dreifish said:

This would largely depend on whether the L&M filters are suitable to the purpose, which is no guarantee. Keldan has done a bit of research and testing to come up with their filters, no doubt. I'm not sure other manufacturers have.

For instance, I've bought 4x of these filters from Divepro for my g18s and I must say I was quite dissapointed with the results. It's as if they just picked a cyan color at random. https://www.walmart.com/ip/DIVEPRO-F01B-Ambient-Light-Filter-Blue-for-Underwater-Video-Lights/479099933. Doesn't seem to attenuate the warm wavelength sufficiently. 

Hi Dreifish,

Do the DivePro F01 filter holders come apart so you can change the gels?  They look like they do from the photos.  I will be receiving my G18+ lights in a week or so here in Fiji and will be testing some blue gels that I have used with BigBlue lights in the past and I will share the results here.

I am thinking that the Lee 196 True Blue Lighting Gel might be a good start as it cuts a bit more of the green spectrum than the Cyan filter does.

Cheers,

CJ

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1 hour ago, cngisl said:

Hi Dreifish,

Do the DivePro F01 filter holders come apart so you can change the gels?  They look like they do from the photos.  I will be receiving my G18+ lights in a week or so here in Fiji and will be testing some blue gels that I have used with BigBlue lights in the past and I will share the results here.

I am thinking that the Lee 196 True Blue Lighting Gel might be a good start as it cuts a bit more of the green spectrum than the Cyan filter does.

Cheers,

CJ

Yes, they do come apart, and what's inside is a 72mm glass cyan 30 filter. However, according to DivePro, they no longer make the filters and have no plans to reintroduce them.

Please report your results with the 196. My concern with it would be that (a) it seems to let through a fair bit of red light, which is not good and (b) the overall transmission is listed at only 26%, which means you'll lose 2 stops of light. That's definitely more than the Cyan 60 and probably more than the Cyan 90.

After spending way too much time looking at spectrum graphs for Lee's filter range, I have ordered the 353 and 354 to test. The 131 also might be promising. 

 

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29 minutes ago, dreifish said:

Yes, they do come apart, and what's inside is a 72mm glass cyan 30 filter. However, according to DivePro, they no longer make the filters and have no plans to reintroduce them.

Please report your results with the 196. My concern with it would be that (a) it seems to let through a fair bit of red light, which is not good and (b) the overall transmission is listed at only 26%, which means you'll lose 2 stops of light. That's definitely more than the Cyan 60 and probably more than the Cyan 90.

After spending way too much time looking at spectrum graphs for Lee's filter range, I have ordered the 353 and 354 to test. The 131 also might be promising. 

 

Thanks for the info, I have ordered 2 of the F01 Filter holders from a dive shop in California who happen to have a few.  Yes I talked to DivePro as well and got the same info.  Maybe if we figure out what works they might be interested in making them again.  

Very interested in your results as well.  If I had better access to gels I would do the same and try a bunch of them.  In a month I will have a friend come visit and he will bring me some new ones to test.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers

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8 hours ago, cngisl said:

Thanks for the info, I have ordered 2 of the F01 Filter holders from a dive shop in California who happen to have a few.  Yes I talked to DivePro as well and got the same info.  Maybe if we figure out what works they might be interested in making them again.  

Very interested in your results as well.  If I had better access to gels I would do the same and try a bunch of them.  In a month I will have a friend come visit and he will bring me some new ones to test.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers

I would avoid the divepro filters I had a chat at the time with them they dont understand this topic at all

 

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19 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I would avoid the divepro filters I had a chat at the time with them they dont understand this topic at all

 

Yea I just bought the clear ones and will be putting my own gels in them.  They are not making them anymore, I get the feeling the feedback was not positive.

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Just now, cngisl said:

Yea I just bought the clear ones and will be putting my own gels in them.  They are not making them anymore, I get the feeling the feedback was not positive.

Look at the spectrum to understand why...

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On 5/16/2022 at 11:30 PM, dreifish said:

My Lee Half CTB, Full CTB and 2 CTB filters have arrived, along with a whole swatch of Rosco filters. So I did some more testing with interesting results:

1. The LEE CTB filters aren't as good as I hoped. They increase the color temperture (I.e. introduce a lot of blue) but don't introduce enough green into the light to match underwater ambient light. Results:

  • No Filter = 4750K, +14 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Half CTB = 7550K, +6 Magenta, 2/3 stops light lost
  • Full CTB = 21000K, +7 Magenta, 1 1/3 stops light lost
  • 2x Full CTB = 50000K +12 Magenta, 2 stops light lost (in fact, 50000K was not sufficient to restore neutral color -- I had to dial down blue saturation to -100 in Lightroom)

2. From the Rosco filters, I tried the Cyan 30 (#4330), Cyan 60 (#4360), Cyan 90 (#4390) and Storaro Cyan (#2005). Interstingly, the Cyan 30 perfectly matched the DivePro F01C filter. I'm guessing this would be good at around 3-5m depth to match ambient light?

  • No Filter = 4750K, +14 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Cyan 30/DivePro F01C = 6600k , +67 Magenta, 1/3 stops light lost
  • Cyan 60 = 8600k, +116 Magneta, 2/3 stops light lost
  • Cyan 90 = 12250K, +150 Magneta, 1 1/3 stops light lost
  • Storaro Cyan = 13250K, +150 Magneta, 2 stops light lost (in fact, +150 magneta was not sufficient to restore neutral color. I had to dial down Aqua saturation -100 and Orange saturation -100 in Lightroom to get rid of the remaining color cast)

 

Based on above testing, I think the Cyan 60 might be a pretty good start for matching ambient light at 6-9 meters. Cyan 90 for 9-12 meters. Not really worth using the Storaro Cyan or the 2x Full CTB.

Next up -- testing combinations of Cyan 60/90 + Half CTB/Full CTB. Cyan 60 +  Half CTB should create interesting results.

New batch of filters have arrived, so I set up a new testing station. This time I shot with the Sony A1, so the WB kelvin values in Lightroom are a bit different than the prior ones on the GH5.

IMG_2798.thumb.JPG.9148cf6b7771c67018d8941209957280.JPG

  • SonyA15000k.jpg.1b0c76ec942d0cafaa7a8fc251ce6e77.jpg
  • No Filter = 4850K, +23 Magenta, 0 stops light lost 
  • SonyA1Rosco4390.jpg.1efadc3272fa84d995503d9abc5dd570.jpg
  • Rosco 4390 (Cyan 90) Filter = 8900k, +141 Magenta, 1 and 1/3 stop of light lost
  • SonyA1Lee353.jpg.67096c8e5ef2bdabd9ef63fbe56d2cf7.jpg
  • Lee 353 Filter (Lighter Blue) = 15250k, +111 Magenta, 1 stop of light lost
  • SonyA1Lee724.jpg.1e7b4dc57768bd3ecb584a4b918b3735.jpg
  • Lee 724 Filter (Ocean Blue) = 26000k, +97 Magenta, 1 and 1/3 stop of light lost

 

  • SonyA1Lee172.jpg.b664ee7bfa6d3975bd485ffee4f01256.jpg
  • Lee 172 Filter (Lagoon Blue) = 50000k, +148 Magenta,  -100 Aqua saturation, 2.4 stop of light lost

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On 5/4/2022 at 2:14 AM, jplaurel said:

I credit a deceptively simple little tool for making my life underwater alot easier. If you're serious about video, YOU MUST have a good gray card at a minimum. And a color checker is also very useful as a color reference when finishing your footage. The Keldan color checker/white balance card was INDISPENSABLE. I had it on a small retract, so I could just grab it for white balance, and I'd also sometimes flip it over to show the Xrite color checker side at the beginning of a shot. I hold it at arm's length for white balance. Really, I cannot emphasize how valuable this thing is. Don't think, just buy it and thank me later.

The attached video shows my wife, Karin, photographing a silver tip at the Canyon. It was shot in slog-3, probably at about ISO 3200 or 6400, XAVC 4K S-I (600 mbps), 10bbit 4.2.2 at 60-FPS. Noise reduction with Neat Video. Keldan SF-2 red filter, and Keldan SF-12 cyan light filters on Keldan 4X compact lights. Depth was 85-90 feet, proving that the SF-2 (rated for 2-15 meters) and SF12 (rated for 10-18 meters) work  well together, even beyond their respective depth ratings. Notice that the lights don't have an overly warm cast, even though at 30,000k, the light temperature is a little lower than ambient. I found the SF-2/SF-12 filter system to work well from safety stop depths all the way down to 100ft.

 

Thank you for posting this topic. I’ve been contemplating about going back to artificial lighting. And explore the use of blue filters along with the a red filter on the lens.

Re. the color checker. I totally agree with you and can not stress enough the value of this technique for accurate color & exposure rendering . I am interested to know how you attach the Keldan color checker to the housing. Some pictures will be helpful as well. If it is not a bothersome, can you update the topic below instead of hijacking the wonderful topic you started?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I finally got my hands on the Keldan SF-6B and SF-12B blue water filters. Interesting results... (on the Canon R5 C in lightroom)

  • No Filter = 5150K, +21 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Keldan SF-6B = 17000K, +146 Magenta,  about 1 and 2/3 stops light lost
  • Keldan SF-12B = 20000K, +144 Magenta, about 1 and 2/3 stops light lost

Surprisingly, there wasn't a lot of difference between the SF-6B and SF-12B.. also, they were both less blue and more green than I expected.

Closest you could probably come to this would be to stack the Lee 353 filter with a Rosco 4330 or 4360 filter. 

  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 = 23000k + 121 Magenta, about 1 stop light lost
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4360 = 27000k + 144 Magenta, about 1.5 stops light lost

If you wanted something closer to the SF-6B, Cyan 60 (Rosco 4360) + Lee Half CTB or Quarter CTB filter may be another combination worth trying.

As a bonus, I also tested the 4 orange filters I have access to against the Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 combination to see how much of the blue filter they were able to neutralize:

  • No blue filter, no orange filter = 4700K, +20M
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 = 23000k + 121M
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 + Original Magic Filter = 8600k + 150M, -1.3 stops of light
    • (Worst of the bunch.. looks more yellow than orange. introduced MORE green into the image, to the point where even after doing WB in post, there was a greenish tinge. Did a decent job of countering the blue, but would not recommend using it in anything but the most pristine blue waters
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 + Auto-Magic Filter = 10000k + 121M, -1.6 stops of light
    • (Decent. Knocked out most of the blue cast, but did little for the green. Again, use only in pristine blue water)
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 + UR/PRO CY Filter = 7700k + 77M, -2.3 stops of light
    • (Most effective. Knocked out most of the blue AND green cast. Would be a good all-around choice)
  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 + Keldan SF-2 Filter = 12000k + 114M, -2.5 stops light 
    • (Ok, but a bit weak. This is designed to compensate only for 4 meters of water depth, and reduces both the blue and green tint. However, in this case, the lights with the Lee 353 and Rosco 4330 filter appear to be better matched to 12 meters of depth..)
Edited by dreifish
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Got a 1/2 CTB to test the earlier theory. Here's the results (on the Canon R5 C in Lightroom)

  • No Filter = 4750K, +14 Magenta, 0 stops light lost
  • Keldan SF-6B = 17000K, +146 Magenta,  about 1 and 2/3 stops light lost
  • Keldan SF-12B = 20000K, +144 Magenta, about 1 and 2/3 stops light lost
  • Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4330 = 9900K +74M, about 2/3 stop light lost
  • Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4360 = 12000K + 104M about 1 stop light lost
  • Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4390 = 13500K + 129M, about 1 and 1/3 stop lost
  • Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4330 + Rosco 4390 = 16000K +150M, about 1 and 2/3 stop lost
  • Lee Full CTB + Rosco 4330 = 22000K + 75M about  1 and 1/3 stop light lost
  • Lee Full CTB + Rosco 4360 = 32000K + 99M about 1 and 1/2 stop light lost

Seems it's rather hard to replicate the Keldan SF-6B filters exactly, at least with this combination of CTB and Cyan filters. You either end up overshooting the blue or undershooting the cyan. Maybe I should've bought some Lee 3/4 CTB filters to get a bit closer. I have a feeling that a Lee 3/4 CTB + Rosco 4390 Cyan filter would be pretty close.

For now, I guess I'll test the Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco + Rosco 4330 + Rosco 4390 and Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 out in the field.

 

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Some real world feedback from last week in the Red Sea -- 

I tested out both the

  • Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 = 23000k + 121 Magenta, about 1 stop light lost
  • Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4330 + Rosco 4390 = 16000K +150M, about 1 and 2/3 stop lost

At 5 meters with DivePro G18 lights. They blended it seamlessly with an ambient white balance at this depth, filling in the shadows:

 

Just ambient light:

AmbientLight5M_1.1.2.thumb.jpg.506334587d3eb4c134538fbcabd9f66a.jpg

+ 2x DivePro G18 lights w/ Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4330 + Rosco 4390

Rosco4390_1.2.1.thumb.jpg.ad68145b34e43bc3af91d3a9d6878ee7.jpg

+ 2x DivePro G18 lights w/ Lee 353 + Rosco 4330

Lee353_1.3.1.thumb.jpg.73563e02fb7e5b183fd4d623d159b581.jpg

+ 4k DivePro G18 lights (2 with first filter combination, 2 with second filter combination)

Both_1.4.1.thumb.jpg.c22dcb296b499e79dc6127a4152d7055.jpg

So as you can see both the filter options worked well, and they worked well together too. None produced weird results. However, given the stength of the ambient light, there's a noticable difference in ability to fill in shadows (look at the mask) when using 4x 18k lumen lights vs. just 2x.

From this point on, I used the Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 combination on all 4 of my lights as I thought it did a slighly better job than the more cyan Lee 1/2 CTB + Rosco 4330 + Rosco 4390 filter combination in the conditions found in the Red Sea.

I'm pleased to report that this filter combination produced great results all the way from 5m to 30m in depth. So, setting a white balance based on ambient light and filling in with the DivePro G18 lights + Lee 353 + Rosco 4330 filters on the lights produced very pleasing results in my view. Here's an example at 30 meters:

30m_1_17.1.thumb.jpg.3d32de5471ed3ead7b7aac2288861976.jpg

And 20 meters:

20m_1_16.1.thumb.jpg.272f1f1221ac2c73fea934cd299a7b6b.jpg

And 15 meters:

15m_1_20.1.thumb.jpg.8e7d54783ac5097369316786627a866a.jpg

And this is how it renders skin-tones at 20 meters. Pretty good, I think!

173816572_Skintones20m_1_19.1.thumb.jpg.e99b2962e7ed1e43ced13a87cec9fb16.jpg

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Great job!

The blues seem a little washed out. I assume the frame caps are ungraded?

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1 minute ago, adamhanlon said:

Great job!

The blues seem a little washed out. I assume the frame caps are ungraded?

Yes, the first set of frame grabs at 5m are from R5 C raw video with Canon's offical Canon Log2-12(bit) to Wide DR lut applied.

The second set at various depths is directly out of camera h.265, filmed in the EOS Standard picture profile.-

A bit of color grading of the raw files can get you very nice results indeed at 10 meters:

246795258_CanonR5CCWB_1.2.1.thumb.jpg.089b1be25778e7deaa68816461a84586.jpg1478836734_Skintones10M_1_22.1.thumb.jpg.488429dc889005b36b28a9d3fa90d955.jpg

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12 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

Great job!

The blues seem a little washed out. I assume the frame caps are ungraded?

Agreed! 

Thanks for the update Andrei!

Also on the first pictures there is quite some noise in the blues? or it is just my idea?

Where you using a red filter on the lens or just a CWB? Would be interesting to see the results with a red camera / blue lights filter combination but also when the WB is set on the color temperature of the lights without any filters.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dreifish said:

Yes, the first set of frame grabs at 5m are from R5 C raw video with Canon's offical Canon Log2-12(bit) to Wide DR lut applied.

The second set at various depths is directly out of camera h.265, filmed in the EOS Standard picture profile.-

A bit of color grading of the raw files can get you very nice results indeed at 10 meters:

246795258_CanonR5CCWB_1.2.1.thumb.jpg.089b1be25778e7deaa68816461a84586.jpg1478836734_Skintones10M_1_22.1.thumb.jpg.488429dc889005b36b28a9d3fa90d955.jpg

Nice skin tones indeed! Too bad that usually divers are covered head to toe with black suits :)))))))

Edited by Lionfi2s
To correct the autocorrect :)

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7 minutes ago, Lionfi2s said:

Agreed! 

Thanks for the update Andrei!

Also on the first pictures there is quite some noise in the blues? or it is just my idea?

The shots were somewhat underexposed. I had to bring them up ~2 stops in post and it's coming off a RAW capture with no noise reduction applied. So yes, they're noisy. Shooting RAW on the RC 5 really is a bit finicky when it comes to exposure and noise.

9 minutes ago, Lionfi2s said:

 

Where you using a red filter on the lens or just a CWB? Would be interesting to see the results with a red camera / blue lights filter combination but also when the WB is set on the color temperature of the lights without any filters.

No red filter, just CWB done in camera off the sand without lights. So, basically a CWB done for the ambient light.

If you set WB in camera for the lights without filters (i.e. 5000 Kelvin) and then put the filters on, you'll just end up with very bluish-green footage. 

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In my experience in the Red Sea shooting a cyan 60 with a red filter of your choice covers all situations with two lights.

For photos I tend to use a cyan 90 as strobes are much more powerful or another blend that I do not recall what is called

I do not like the CTB or the URPRO too much they have orange cast and the blue are never deep enough

Generally for photos  I use magic and for video keldan filters

This time I have also used no filter on the lens and cyan 60 on the light or nothing on the light in some cases it resulted in too warm image that I corrected later

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52 minutes ago, dreifish said:

The shots were somewhat underexposed. I had to bring them up ~2 stops in post and it's coming off a RAW capture with no noise reduction applied. So yes, they're noisy. Shooting RAW on the RC 5 really is a bit finicky when it comes to exposure and noise.

No red filter, just CWB done in camera off the sand without lights. So, basically a CWB done for the ambient light.

If you set WB in camera for the lights without filters (i.e. 5000 Kelvin) and then put the filters on, you'll just end up with very bluish-green footage. 

I meant without filters on the lights to see the difference.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Lionfi2s said:

I meant without filters on the lights to see the difference.

And custom white balance off the lights? You’ll just end up with natural colors in the foreground and everything in the background blue. 
 

Blue_1_24.1.thumb.jpg.db5297286230833763a32b41ed109d3a.jpg

Conversely, if you CWB for ambient and use no filters on the lights (or filters that are too weak),  your foreground subject will turn red.

Red_1_25.1.thumb.jpg.e535eadb8216d7fba67064c4708ce9e8.jpg

 

Edited by dreifish

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Well its subjective but in some scenes I prefer the color contrast created with just custom white balance on the lights.

I ve just started using ambient filters but my first impression is that the image comes back a bit flat (no color contrast).

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