Full Frame Cameras with 4k60 10 bit 422 vs GH5M2

[Interceptor121 773]

I started looking more closely at an upgrade from my GH5M2 as I do not like the GH6 housing so I though maybe take the opportunity for a rehaul

As of today there are only three Sony cameras that support this and one planned. I prefer Sony as they have more options for wet lenses

1. A7 IV _> Super35 crop

2. A1 -> full sensor pixel binning

3. A7S3 -> full sensor

4. A7RV -> Super35 crop

The A7 IV and A7RV have shocking rolling shutter in full sensor readout and only really work in Super35 mode properly.

This means the only real option are the A1 and A7S3. If you want to also use the camera for photos only the A1

I then looked at Canon there are 3 models 

1. R5/R5C -> 8k

2. R6 MkII -> 4k 

3. R3 -> grip style

Here the R5 is the only real option as the other have rolling shutter or are grip style (I do not want a grip camera). The measured performance of this camera is not better than my current camera in Video (!) however there is good noise reduction in camera 

Support for wet lenses is lower with WACP style option but you can reuse EF lenses.

Verdict interesting for photo OR video upgrade but not for both

Nikon

1. Z7 II -> pixel skipping (not binning)

2. Z6 II -> Super35

3. Z9 -> OK

Again not interested in the Z9 form factor.

This is the reason why I concluded that the only camera that offers an upgrade path to both photos and videos is the Sony A1 unless you want a grip style camera

If instead you are only interested in video and don't need 8K again the A7S3 is the best option

The A7S3 costs 2.81x the GH5M2 to only improve in video. At that point I wonder if the GH6 is a better path as I can use the other lenses and ports but the A7S3 housing is cheaper and the 28-60mm lens is also cheap but if you start with other larger optics this snowballs. Yes I would say starting from zero the A7S3 does offer all options in terms of performance

The A1 costs 4.82x the GH5M2 and improves on both camps however if you look at starting from scratch the ratio camera + housing becomes 9,916/5791=1.71

Obviously lenses for full frame are more expensive but not a great deal ports are bigger and more expensive but I have already made that step

I guess my conclusion is if money no object and you are not invested heavily in MFT A1 is a path you can follow especially if you are only interested in underwater.

If you are already a GH5 user with the housing the easiest option is to get a GH5M2 or a GH5S depending on what you look for it then becomes very costly to switch

I will be reflecting on the A1 until Xmas and potentially rent the camera to check a few topside scenarios

 

[Davide DB 494]

I will buy your GH5M2

[Interceptor121 773]

3 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I will buy your GH5M2

My next big trip is June 2023 so I will do a lot of diligence on the A1 am not planning to check other options as I have fundamentally excluded them. My main concern with the A1 is the LCD lower resolution. It has an amazing EVF for topside and perhaps photos but I prefer not to have a monitor underwater for speed and bulk reduction

Meanwhile I keep my GH5M2 I will keep you posted

[Davide DB 494]

GH5M2s are like unicorns.
I had found a used one but the seller did not show up for the meeting and disappeared.
If you eventually decide to sell it keep me in mind.

IMHO the top camera for video right now is the C70. Secondly the R5C. they both have RAW light and Canon for underwater color is unbeatable.
the problem is the total cost which makes them (for me) unaffordable.

 

[Interceptor121 773]

8 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

GH5M2s are like unicorns.
I had found a used one but the seller did not show up for the meeting and disappeared.
If you eventually decide to sell it keep me in mind.

IMHO the top camera for video right now is the C70. Secondly the R5C. they both have RAW light and Canon for underwater color is unbeatable.
the problem is the total cost which makes them (for me) unaffordable.

 

I am not interested in a video only device and I would still prefer the A7S3 better support of optics smaller to carry and actually better performance. The performance of the R5C does not particularly impress me the C70 is much better but again I do not want a video device there are many other options if you do

Edited November 9, 2022 by Interceptor121

[nomadadv 5]

HI interceptor, i have been reading quite a few of your articles with some really interesting tips, advice and knowledge. It has been a gr8 source for me as i'm discovering video after a long time on nikon dslr, i'm playing a lot with a gh4 and i have been really appreciating your resources and knowledge, thank you for putting those out there. Reading this post though and given your experience would a camera like the a1 really give you room to grow even further? ( we re almost talking jedi or sith level ). Jokes aside of course there are costly but what about moving to cinematic cameras ? and of course every stallion would love to go for the latest red but i have been doing quite a bit of snooping around there is starting to be quite a few models of second hand cameras that offer 4k to 120 fps with interesting dynamic range. I assume that size and the fact that finding housings for these cameras are not easy.  But then what of Black magic cameras ..? 

thk you for reading :-)

[Interceptor121 773]

8 minutes ago, nomadadv said:

HI interceptor, i have been reading quite a few of your articles with some really interesting tips, advice and knowledge. It has been a gr8 source for me as i'm discovering video after a long time on nikon dslr, i'm playing a lot with a gh4 and i have been really appreciating your resources and knowledge, thank you for putting those out there. Reading this post though and given your experience would a camera like the a1 really give you room to grow even further? ( we re almost talking jedi or sith level ). Jokes aside of course there are costly but what about moving to cinematic cameras ? and of course every stallion would love to go for the latest red but i have been doing quite a bit of snooping around there is starting to be quite a few models of second hand cameras that offer 4k to 120 fps with interesting dynamic range. I assume that size and the fact that finding housings for these cameras are not easy.  But then what of Black magic cameras ..? 

thk you for reading :-)

Thanks for the nice words. I don't think I have made it to Jedi master yet

I enjoy taking both pictures AND video almost the same and I am looking for a single camera to both

If I was focussing only on photos I would have many solutions, if I was focussing on video I would also have some solutions

But can't find one for both

I do not consider myself a cinematographer more a documentarist and I like the outdoors so the idea of lugging around a non stabilised cameras that weights a ton is not something I subscribe to 

I am also very analytical for example my underwater parts cost is the same of the A1 underwater parts cost the issue is the camera and lens price difference. And also the challenge of some use cases (macro, long lens video work) that are made harder by heavier lenses

I definitely thing full frame will improve my night photography, my landscape photography, my wide angle underwater photography and video but am not prepare to run two systems because I like simplicity

Edited November 9, 2022 by Interceptor121

[nomadadv 5]

I understand where you are coming i am also like you and i do to do topside work ofc i would also love to have a perfect cam for photo and video but i do believe there are rumours  of s1h2 on the way, nauticam has removed the s1h housing from their site.... Also there is the much promised z8 which everyone whispers about . I do believe that 1 and 2 quarter of 2023 will release some interesting surprises. 

For the a7rv the rolling shutter in most reviews i have seen were showing it was heavy on the 8k but on the 4 k it seemed quite reasonable..  

Cheers,

[Interceptor121 773]

I understand where you are coming i am also like you and i do to do topside work ofc i would also love to have a perfect cam for photo and video but i do believe there are rumours  of s1h2 on the way, nauticam has removed the s1h housing from their site.... Also there is the much promised z8 which everyone whispers about . I do believe that 1 and 2 quarter of 2023 will release some interesting surprises. 
For the a7rv the rolling shutter in most reviews i have seen were showing it was heavy on the 8k but on the 4 k it seemed quite reasonable..  
Cheers,

When you crop to APSC you have zero benefit on the GH5M2 this is the problem
In addition your lenses set up changes
Not a solution
Panasonic cameras need WACP this is not on my radar for now
With sony new model release panasonic can use the older sensor with their superior ergonomics and video so we shall see
For now am renting an A1 with 3-4 lenses at new year when I have time to test


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[Lionfi2s 74]

On 11/9/2022 at 1:45 PM, Davide DB said:

GH5M2s are like unicorns.
I had found a used one but the seller did not show up for the meeting and disappeared.
If you eventually decide to sell it keep me in mind.

IMHO the top camera for video right now is the C70. Secondly the R5C. they both have RAW light and Canon for underwater color is unbeatable.
the problem is the total cost which makes them (for me) unaffordable.

 

Davide get a used Gh5S. For video that mostly interests you is way better than the MK2 and almost on par with the A7S3. 

 

[thetrickster 328]

Its really interesting looking at what to buy today - I feel we have hit a bit of a lull since the original GH5 and the cameras that followed it. All very incremental - yes better in all aspects, but nothing that wants me to drop 10k on a system and anything that does look nice, is so so expensive for that 'little' extra.

If you have nothing at the moment - wow the total cost is eye watering with the USD vs EUR/GBP for housings and the bits.

I think you're right, there is zero point going APS-C vs m43 if you already have m43 - the C70 would be a nice choice if you had nothing thou. The GH6 didn't win me over as an upgrade.

The A1 looks like the current contender if you can't live with the Z9 grip - but I think I would spend my money on the Z9 for the internal RAW 8K files. I'm done with anything external.

The WACP-C looks like a no brainer purchase going forwards for 35mm - but for a hobby this its not cheap!

As to m43 - got to be honest I feel its reached its end of life, what we have is great - love my GH5, and BMPCC4K (now we have gyro stab) but won't be buying m43 anymore. For me, for topside I'm waiting for the A7C Mkii 

Look forward to your A1 thoughts, I wish we could rent stuff here - when I looked it was 1/4 the cost of the camera for a week!

[Interceptor121 773]

4 hours ago, Lionfi2s said:

Davide get a used Gh5S. For video that mostly interests you is way better than the MK2 and almost on par with the A7S3. 

 

That is only true if you spend your life at ISO 3200 otherwise the GH5S is not an improvement and it does not shoot 4k60 10 bits

It is the reason why after renting one am not buying one

[Davide DB 494]

21 hours ago, Lionfi2s said:

Davide get a used Gh5S. For video that mostly interests you is way better than the MK2 and almost on par with the A7S3. 

 

My buddy has a GH5S and we film together every week. At low ISO (up to 1250) there's a small difference. Higher than that, GH5S is better but I would miss IBIS. I'm able to film nearly steady shots at 42mm (84mm). On a GH5S it's nearly impossible except you are half diver and half gimbal (like my buddy).

[Davide DB 494]

We all like to have new toys and hope for a linear advancement of technology over the years.

Actually, it's hard to admit, after so many years, the GH5 (GH5S and MKII) are still the top for underwater video shooting in that price range and more.

Despite the years, you will only have a clear improvement by changing to models that have RAW but, as you can easily verify, the economic investment is double if not triple.

I am talking exclusively about video. Photography is a whole other story. Too often we mix the topics when talking about lenses and features.

Currently for my video needs the only real impediment I find is regarding the lens to use with the WWL-1. While for other formats and brands there are choices, for MFT we are at a dead end with the 14-42 that is just a piece of plastic.

[Interceptor121 773]

We all like to have new toys and hope for a linear advancement of technology over the years.
Actually, it's hard to admit, after so many years, the GH5 (GH5S and MKII) are still the top for underwater video shooting in that price range and more.
Despite the years, you will only have a clear improvement by changing to models that have RAW but, as you can easily verify, the economic investment is double if not triple.
I am talking exclusively about video. Photography is a whole other story. Too often we mix the topics when talking about lenses and features.
Currently for my video needs the only real impediment I find is regarding the lens to use with the WWL-1. While for other formats and brands there are choices, for MFT we are at a dead end with the 14-42 that is just a piece of plastic.

It is very much the same for other formats
Sony 16-50 is an average lens
28-60mm full frame much better
Other formats need a WACP for larger lenses and now you can use the 12-35 with it
So other than sony full frame there are no better options for the WWL-1 it is one of the reason am looking at Sony in fact or you are in WACP territory


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[Davide DB 494]

12-35 is a terrific lens for video

[Davide DB 494]

4 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Other formats need a WACP for larger lenses and now you can use the 12-35 with it

Which WACP?

I couldn't find it on Nauticam chart

[Barmaglot 251]

29 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Which WACP?

I couldn't find it on Nauticam chart

WACP-1 chart features the 12-35mm, although the zoom range is limited to 14-30mm or less, depending on extension.

[thetrickster 328]

19 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

WACP-1 chart features the 12-35mm, although the zoom range is limited to 14-30mm or less, depending on extension.

Ouch. Not sure my wallet could take that sort of abuse this side of 2023.

The WACP and the 12-35 would be a big step up in resolving resolution for m43. 

I wonder why (looking at the charts) only the original WACP-1 is showing as compatible and not the new WACP-C

Edited November 12, 2022 by thetrickster

[Davide DB 494]

I think nobody maybe except Nauticam tried the 12-35 mm on a WACP.

Too expensive for a test 

[Interceptor121 773]

I think nobody maybe except Nauticam tried the 12-35 mm on a WACP.
Too expensive for a test 

There is no doubt a benefit but only for photos
Basically those optics are worth to have higher resolution but at some point all cameras max out as underwater the resolution just drops
My equation is MFT WWL-1 APSC WAPC-C and full frame WACP-1
However some sony work well with wwl-1 with no visible improvement going bigger
Probably the lens hitting the limit
For reference my canon 8-15mm and dome is way sharper than 14-42mm and WWL-1


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[Lionfi2s 74]

18 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

For reference my canon 8-15mm and dome is way sharper than 14-42mm and WWL-1


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Can you please post some examples to see the difference?

[Lionfi2s 74]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:06 PM, Davide DB said:

My buddy has a GH5S and we film together every week. At low ISO (up to 1250) there's a small difference. Higher than that, GH5S is better but I would miss IBIS. I'm able to film nearly steady shots at 42mm (84mm). On a GH5S it's nearly impossible except you are half diver and half gimbal (like my buddy).

Have you thought of some kind of tripod solution?

It also depends on what you are usually shooting but you usually film deep so that is why I think gh5s is a much better option for you.

[Lionfi2s 74]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:50 PM, thetrickster said:

Its really interesting looking at what to buy today - I feel we have hit a bit of a lull since the original GH5 and the cameras that followed it. All very incremental - yes better in all aspects, but nothing that wants me to drop 10k on a system and anything that does look nice, is so so expensive for that 'little' extra.

If you have nothing at the moment - wow the total cost is eye watering with the USD vs EUR/GBP for housings and the bits.

I think you're right, there is zero point going APS-C vs m43 if you already have m43 - the C70 would be a nice choice if you had nothing thou. The GH6 didn't win me over as an upgrade.

The A1 looks like the current contender if you can't live with the Z9 grip - but I think I would spend my money on the Z9 for the internal RAW 8K files. I'm done with anything external.

The WACP-C looks like a no brainer purchase going forwards for 35mm - but for a hobby this its not cheap!

As to m43 - got to be honest I feel its reached its end of life, what we have is great - love my GH5, and BMPCC4K (now we have gyro stab) but won't be buying m43 anymore. For me, for topside I'm waiting for the A7C Mkii 

Look forward to your A1 thoughts, I wish we could rent stuff here - when I looked it was 1/4 the cost of the camera for a week!

For video, the A1 is not really the camera to use underwater. The A7s3 is much better. The difference is not only in noise performance but in color "science" and wb as well. 

[Interceptor121 773]

For video, the A1 is not really the camera to use underwater. The A7s3 is much better. The difference is not only in noise performance but in color "science" and wb as well. 

Based on whose experience?

The A1 uses a very similar sensor to the A7S3 and on 4k has 2x2 pixel binning resulting in superior performance to the A7S3

In addition the noise reduction is not baked in as result looking at CineD tests the A1 trashes every full frame camera on the market

In terms of white balance looking at not very strict tests of backscatter the white balance of the A1 A7S3 and new A7RV is the same

Nobody uses the A1 for video as it is way expensive but I have not seen a single real example underwater that says it won’t work in fact the opposite

Then sony users are not the best example of competence in video either

 

 

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