Why its best to have two style viewfinders

[onokai 20]

In a Subal or Nauticam housing I use Nauticam viewfinders.  Both have advantages and you really need both.

The straight thru (gunshot) is great for finding fish on the move or also a night dives to locate things faster.

The 45 is my go to in most daytime situations shooting macro for example. You can get on the same eye level as subject and it easier to frame the view from above looking at subjects.I

Its not one or the other its both are needed for the best results for me..

[Interceptor121 843]

In a Subal or Nauticam housing I use Nauticam viewfinders.  Both have advantages and you really need both.
The straight thru (gunshot) is great for finding fish on the move or also a night dives to locate things faster.
The 45 is my go to in most daytime situations shooting macro for example. You can get on the same eye level as subject and it easier to frame the view from above looking at subjects.I
Its not one or the other its both are needed for the best results for me..

On a mirrorless camera with a decent LCD the straight viewfinder has a really little use case in my opinion
DSLR you need one mirrorless probably not


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[rwb500 25]

why is the straight viewfinder better at night??  Couldn't you just use the 45 all the time?  I think once you get used to it, its fine for open water and other non-macro subjects.

[Interceptor121 843]

20 minutes ago, rwb500 said:

why is the straight viewfinder better at night??  Couldn't you just use the 45 all the time?  I think once you get used to it, its fine for open water and other non-macro subjects.

the OP uses a DLSR for which viewfinders are required as the camera will not focus with phase detect using live view

For mirrorless the op post is less interesting and I do not think anyone with a decent mirrorless with a good LCD has even considered a straight viewfinder. I have not for example

[Alex_Mustard 0]

My view is that you are much better placed getting used to one style of viewfinder and use only that so it is entirely second nature. 

[TimG 62]

23 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

My view is that you are much better placed getting used to one style of viewfinder and use only that so it is entirely second nature. 

Totally agree. 

[onokai 20]

I shot the straight thru viewfinder for over 35 years  in every Aqutitica and Subal I owned and until I used and got used to the 45 for bottom dewelling subjects I did not know what I was missing. With the 45 you can put housing on bottom and really move in close for macro work. The Nauticams also have a adjustment for better optics than many other viewfinders

At night  dives I still prefer the 180 gun site as it a bit mor intuitive to find subjects till for me. Unless it all bottom critters I'm shooting at night.

If shooting faster moving subjects like fish the gunsite is easier to fast track. Say open water subjects as well .Yes I'm shooting a Nikon d850 now. Not a mirrorless.. 

Its my 40th year shooting housings underwater and yes you need to get used to whatever finder you have 1st before using another style finder, or for that matter any piece of underwater gear.

[Interceptor121 843]

I shot the straight thru viewfinder for over 35 years  in every Aqutitica and Subal I owned and until I used and got used to the 45 for bottom dewelling subjects I did not know what I was missing. With the 45 you can put housing on bottom and really move in close for macro work. The Nauticams also have a adjustment for better optics than many other viewfinders
At night  dives I still prefer the 180 gun site as it a bit mor intuitive to find subjects till for me. Unless it all bottom critters I'm shooting at night.
If shooting faster moving subjects like fish the gunsite is easier to fast track. Say open water subjects as well .Yes I'm shooting a Nikon d850 now. Not a mirrorless.. 
Its my 40th year shooting housings underwater and yes you need to get used to whatever finder you have 1st before using another style finder, or for that matter any piece of underwater gear.

When you move to mirrorless you will no longer need a straight viewfinder but you will still need an angled one


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[onokai 20]

Not moving to mirrorless unless they get a bunch smaller and lighter (the housing and cameras) right now they are about the same as a dslr and they need to improve on action tracking as well

[Interceptor121 843]

Not moving to mirrorless unless they get a bunch smaller and lighter (the housing and cameras) right now they are about the same as a dslr and they need to improve on action tracking as well

Many users are on mirrorless a generic statement on two viewfinders doesn’t apply to them
Am not suggesting you should change your system
My a1 tracks better than your nikon by the way


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[oneyellowtang 112]

@onokai The Sony A1 is a much newer generation (both due to being mirrorless and other capabilities, including AF in some scenarios) than the D850 (I dive with both the D500 and D850, my daughter has been diving with the Sony A series for the last 5 years). The Sony A1 does have much better tracking... having said this - a better comparison would be the Sony A7RV, which also has better tracking, at a better price point. For these mirrorless cameras the straight viewfinders are less valuable given the quality of the LCDs, refresh rate, etc. Having said this, I have both viewfinders for my Nikons, however I use the 45 almost 90% of the time now, even shooting blackwater. I use them in part because of the adjustable diopter...

To move to a Sony A system that can get reasonable results shooting macro, he had to spend significantly more (for what some would argue inferior capabilities given lens limitations), over 2x in today's $.

 

[Interceptor121 843]

53 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

@onokai The Sony A1 is a much newer generation (both due to being mirrorless and other capabilities, including AF in some scenarios) than the D850 (I dive with both the D500 and D850, my daughter has been diving with the Sony A series for the last 5 years). The Sony A1 does have much better tracking... having said this - a better comparison would be the Sony A7RV, which also has better tracking, at a better price point. For these mirrorless cameras the straight viewfinders are less valuable given the quality of the LCDs, refresh rate, etc. Having said this, I have both viewfinders for my Nikons, however I use the 45 almost 90% of the time now, even shooting blackwater. I use them in part because of the adjustable diopter...

To move to a Sony A system that can get reasonable results shooting macro, he had to spend significantly more (for what some would argue inferior capabilities given lens limitations), over 2x in today's $.

 

He mentioned action tracking. For me action tracking means fast moving subjects and to do better than the D850 it needs to support 10fps 

The A7RV with a sloppy 7 fps RAW can't really compete with the D850 today

[oneyellowtang 112]

@Interceptor121  Did you ask him or did you assume what he was shooting?

You could always look through previous posts to get an idea...

[Interceptor121 843]

9 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

@Interceptor121  Did you ask him or did you assume what he was shooting?

You could always look through previous posts to get an idea...

He wrote

they need to improve on action tracking as well

The A7RV is not particularly good at action tracking it is not designed for it. No specific need to ask what is shooting from this sentence

[onokai 20]

I read lots of camera reviews and the action tracking is a constant issue. I'm sure it will improve with mirrorless  soon for sports and action shooters and surpass the DSLRs soon. Heck DSLRs are not being made anymore soon. For a old guy like me to change it now has to be lighter and smaller (the whole package,housing strobes camera) and work as well in all applications  including action tracking.

I am not even talking about the lens issues of all my SLR lens that I have and really would need to switch out slowly. 

[TimG 62]

How much action tracking goes on in u/w photography? Just asking…

[Interceptor121 843]

How much action tracking goes on in u/w photography? Just asking…

Very little and with dome ports or water contact ports I never use caf anyway
Some people use it for macro but mostly to compensate for their own movement in the water
Tracking works better with a flat port where there is no virtual image


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[TimG 62]

4 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Very little

Yeah, that's what I figured. Maybe for fast moving seals or dolphins with wide-angle

[Interceptor121 843]

Yeah, that's what I figured. Maybe for fast moving seals or dolphins with wide-angle

What always puzzled me is using caf in a dome
The lens makes adjustments to find the focus that are most likely preset for land use
How does it react when you have a virtual image and the image is compressed?
Assuming your camera can shoot 20fps you could get quite a good number of shots with single af at the start of the scene as the subject will stay in the depth of field for a while if not very close or moving horizontally
But this is clearly off topic and I should stop here!


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[oneyellowtang 112]

15 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

He wrote

they need to improve on action tracking as well

The A7RV is not particularly good at action tracking it is not designed for it. No specific need to ask what is shooting from this sentence

What you wrote: "For me action tracking means fast moving subjects and to do better than the D850 it needs to support 10fps"

The A7RV was a different comment, mine was regarding the fact that you assumed he was talking about shooting video, you didn't actually ask for the clarification.

There are a number of folks who shoot with c-af on a DSLR, including @adamhanlon who wrote (3/22):

"I think that shooting the D850 (or D500/D5) in single servo mode is like driving a Ferrari at 30mph...

For the majority of my shooting, I use Continuous AF with 3D focus tracking" w/regards to shooting macro. 

I've also found it particularly useful for some blackwater sitatuations...

 

[Interceptor121 843]

2 hours ago, oneyellowtang said:

What you wrote: "For me action tracking means fast moving subjects and to do better than the D850 it needs to support 10fps"

The A7RV was a different comment, mine was regarding the fact that you assumed he was talking about shooting video, you didn't actually ask for the clarification.

There are a number of folks who shoot with c-af on a DSLR, including @adamhanlon who wrote (3/22):

"I think that shooting the D850 (or D500/D5) in single servo mode is like driving a Ferrari at 30mph...

For the majority of my shooting, I use Continuous AF with 3D focus tracking" w/regards to shooting macro. 

I've also found it particularly useful for some blackwater sitatuations...

 

As I wrote earlier keeping focus on a static subject while the diver moves to control buoyancy is not the same as fast action so we are aligned

In fact quite a few cameras including A7R4/5 A7IV etc can do that quite well

When we look at more fast moving subjects @TimG example of dolphins where you shoot at higher frame rate potentially with no strobes then we are in another domain but to be honest I do not use tracking for those just CAF

I make sure the target is on the AF points myself. Dolphins are not birds you can track by your eye

 

[adamhanlon 0]

This thread is about viewfinders folks....

The OP is asking about using two different types of viewfinder. Comments like

On 2/21/2023 at 6:06 PM, Interceptor121 said:

When you move to mirrorless

are irrelevant and simply provoke an argumentative response. The OP has not stated an interest in doing so, nor have they asked for any input about 

I only use a 45° viewfinder. I am not nearly clever/co ordinated enough to get my brain to rewire if I split between types. I use the 45° at night and with faster moving subjects comfortably. 

[Interceptor121 843]

This thread is about viewfinders folks....

The OP is asking about using two different types of viewfinder. Comments like
are irrelevant and simply provoke an argumentative response. The OP has not stated an interest in doing so, nor have they asked for any input about 

I only use a 45° viewfinder. I am not nearly clever/co ordinated enough to get my brain to rewire if I split between types. I use the 45° at night and with faster moving subjects comfortably. 

The comment about mirrorless is relevant as the op didn’t say he is using a DSLR and the query he got was from a mirrorless user
You can’t make a generic statement ok viewfinders in 2023 without saying what system you talk about
So the post itself is off


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[adamhanlon 0]

@Interceptor121....neither you nor I have any right whatsoever to suggest that any post is "off". Why would you feel that you are (as a person) are capable of assessing what someone else wants to ask? We are a community of equals, supporting each other and providing opinions. You seem to feel that you have the ability to assess the validity of posts. I would strongly suggest that you reconsider this.

There is no requirements on these forums to specify what camera system you are using. Again, you have no right to state that:

6 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

You can’t make a generic statement ok viewfinders in 2023 without saying what system you talk about

To stress to anyone else following this discussion,  from the perspective of the Wetpixel Admins, this is NOT our opinion and does not reflect our thinking in any way. We welcome people to make generic enquiries if they wish. 

Anyone can ask whatever they want on this forum (as long as it is related to underwater image making). To stress, your comment about "when" was made after he had stated that he is using an SLR, so is irrelevant, and simply comes across as argumentative and critical. If you have nothing to add to his (or other's) enquiry, please avoid commenting. 

[Interceptor121 843]

1 minute ago, adamhanlon said:

@Interceptor121....neither you nor I have any right whatsoever to suggest that any post is "off". Why would you feel that you are (as a person) are capable of assessing what someone else wants to ask? We are a community of equals, supporting each other and providing opinions. You seem to feel that you have the ability to assess the validity of posts. I would strongly suggest that you reconsider this.

There is no requirements on these forums to specify what camera system you are using. Again, you have no right to state that:

To stress to anyone else following this discussion,  from the perspective of the Wetpixel Admins, this is NOT our opinion and does not reflect our thinking in any way. We welcome people to make generic enquiries if they wish. 

Anyone can ask whatever they want on this forum (as long as it is related to underwater image making). To stress, your comment about "when" was made after he had stated that he is using an SLR, so is irrelevant, and simply comes across as argumentative and critical. If you have nothing to add to his (or other's) enquiry, please avoid commenting. 

It is not argumentative and mine is an opionion what is the problem?

The topic says why you need two viewfinders. It does not actually articulate the exact requirements for it that apply generally

I made the conclusion that the user is a DSLR user because I know but then someone else comes and wonders why would I do need that?

Even DSLR users say maybe that is not needed which is an opinion

However the blanket statement Why its best to have two style viewfinders and the explanation that follow is not really universal. And this is not an opinion is a fact as it does not apply as DSLR has limitations mirrorless does not have

I do not want to persuade the op to change system either but a statement like that as a blanket is not very effective and lends itself to questioning

If it was as a DSLR User I believe....

No problem nobody else with a mirrorless camera would have bothered but he did not

And besides on DSLR I would actually agree with the op as split shots are a pain with an angled viewfinder