Sony A7R V

[Phil Rudin 456]

This weeks trip to the Florida Springs with the new Sony A7R V, Sony FE 28-60mm zoom and Nauticam WACP-C, a trifecta of optical performance.

Little Devil Silhouette and dive buddy Courtland in the bowl at Devil's Eye looking into the cavern.

[TimG 62]

Very cool first image, Phil

[sinetwo 26]

How are you finding the A7Rv? I assume it's different enough to require a new housing and an older A7Riv housing isn't compatible? I have a D500 setup with everything, but I wanted to upgrade to mirrorless for land based photography. Ideally I'd just have one camera for everything, but I'm concerned about Sony's macro lineup for 105 and 60 (blackwater diving).

[Phil Rudin 456]

2 hours ago, sinetwo said:

How are you finding the A7Rv? I assume it's different enough to require a new housing and an older A7Riv housing isn't compatible? I have a D500 setup with everything, but I wanted to upgrade to mirrorless for land based photography. Ideally I'd just have one camera for everything, but I'm concerned about Sony's macro lineup for 105 and 60 (blackwater diving).

Several improvements over the A7R IV but until I have a proper housing I will continue to use the Sony A1.

I would be happy to see a new 50-60 range macro from Sony but I find the 90mm to be excellent for blackwater with the Sony A1. 

[JYk 20]

Question remands why to use the A7RV. Its a good camera but I have the feeling its in a strange void between the A7 IV and the A1. I just don't know if it might be better just to save a few more bucks for the A1 or to buy the A7 IV if you don't wan't to spend that much money. 
Just ignore, I think to save 3k is a good reason. I had the impression the price gab was smaller between A7R V and the A1. 

Maybe @Phil Rudin got some more point for the A7RV which i missed. But I have the feeling that the A1 way more better than the A7R that its preferable to save the money for some more time to buy the highest tier in the Sony lineup. 

Edited January 5 by JYk

[sinetwo 26]

I would also be interested in why you are considering the A7RV if you've already got the A1 @Phil Rudin? Are there any advantages with the A7RV?

 

(Someone I spoke to with the A7Riv is seriously hating the macro capabilities and want to move back to Nikon DSLR, but I'm not sure what his gripes are...)

[mochikat 4]

I would be interested in A1 vs R5 comparison too. From what I can see it seems there is very little reason to go for the A1 if you're only interested in photo and don't care about video. The reviews for A7R5 seem to indicate with the new AI capabilities, autofocus is now better than the A1, and EVF is the same. 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Synch speed for WA is obviously in favour of A1. For macro HSS negates this with the right lighting. I think the A7RV is very different to A7RIV, despite being its descendant.

I am interested in Phil's take on the AF and IQ between the A1 and A7RV, not sure anyone else has shot both underwater yet.

Price in favour of R5, plus you can buy an older a7 body as cheap backup to use in same housing. 

I think Nikon shooters will soon have a similar decision between Z9 and Z8, with pretty similar specs.

Alex

 

[Interceptor121 765]

Synch speed for WA is obviously in favour of A1. For macro HSS negates this with the right lighting. I think the A7RV is very different to A7RIV, despite being its descendant. I am interested in Phil's take on the AF and IQ between the A1 and A7RV, not sure anyone else has shot both underwater yet.

Price in favour of R5, plus you can buy an older a7 body as cheap backup to use in same housing. 

I think Nikon shooters will soon have a similar decision between Z9 and Z8, with pretty similar specs.

Alex

 

 

There are no reference points underwater until Phil tells us something however top side I have investigated all Sony options The key difference between the A1 and the A7RV is a small improvement in DR for the A7R5 we are talking about 1/3 Ev this is due to the fact that stacked sensor that run very fast have some inner noise limitations so from an IQ point of view not much to say one has more megapixels than the other

From functionality point of view A7R5 has a new AF subject detection that recognises more shapes however in general terms the performance is not on par with the A1 that has the best AF on the market at present when measured on certain type of task such as birds in flight. Another issue of the R5 is that as the sensor reads slower tracking is less sticky than the A1

Other considerations: Sync speed: 1/250 vs 1/400, faster EVF refresh rate practically real time in the A1

For reference the AF of the A7IV is better than the A7R5.

The other significant issue of the A7R5 is rolling shutter that kills it from video perspective and low burst rate however those are not important for underwater shooter

The A1 costs almost 50% more than the A7RV but it is in another category altogether.

At midrange instead I would consider more the A7IV 33 megapixels but the LCD is really bad it has less rolling shutter not sure about sync speed but this is a camera I have considered more than the A7R5 as underwater I don't think you can actually resolve 50 megapixels anyway and closing down aperture makes resolution drop quickly on mirrorless anyway by f/11 on the A1 you are maxed out. At f/22 you are effectively at 15 megapixels so it is really the case of WACP or similar or you don't get the benefits

In my opinion for someone coming from DSLR should look into cameras that are more responsive with a high speed EVF as you will really feel the lag otherwise

 

 

Edit I have forgot the R5 has a better rating for autofocus in low light however to be frank my A1 sees in the dark except the 90mm macro this lens hunts off his own will

Re R5 vs R4 the sensor is identical the change is the processing pipeline and autofocus with deep learning and some other functions that will matter nothing to an underwater shooter

[oneyellowtang 95]

Daughter picked up the A7RV to be housed shortly. Shooting w/the 90mm on land it is significantly faster in AF than the A7RIV. Housing is ordered, we will see what it's like u/w in the spring.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

It is a really interesting time. One where underwater testing has never been more important.

You can have a camera that is brilliant with birds in flight, but poor at focusing on a goby with a macro lens. One that can track a human through a forest, but won’t focus on the face of a turtle. 

I think the lesson is while the camera companies are trying to improve with each model, sometimes the software driven specialist capabilities might be game changers underwater and other times totally irrelevant. Sometimes the top of the range camera will be really worth having, sometimes a cheaper model will actually be best.

And what we need is real underwater experience. Not what we read on the manufacturer’s or dealer’s website. Not what we see on topside photography forums. But actual underwater experience from people, like Phil, testing them underwater. Or we could easily back the wrong horse.

[Architeuthis 155]

5 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

Daughter picked up the A7RV to be housed shortly. Shooting w/the 90mm on land it is significantly faster in AF than the A7RIV. Housing is ordered, we will see what it's like u/w in the spring.

Hi Matt,

 

When you say "slow" and "fast" AF: does "slow" mean the lens is pumping back and forth for a long time until it finds the focus (or maybe never) and "fast" means it snaps right into focus without (much) pumping?

How about low light improvement (A7RIV vs. A7RV)? Does this matter in practice?

 

Wolfgang

[oneyellowtang 95]

@Alex_Mustard Fully agree...

We'll see what the A7RV (w/Nauticam housing) can do in Ambon in a few months.

My main reason for posting was the comment that AF on the A7IV was better than the A7RV. Having tried the A7IV in a pool, not really impressed with the AF in those conditions.

 

[oneyellowtang 95]

@Wolfgang

Without getting the A7RV in the water yet, much of what we've experienced personally is subjective. However, in low light (dusk) with both an A7RIV and an A7RV shooting similar subjects (albeit two different photographers) the AF (using a 90mm lens on subjects found in beach sand) for the A7RV locked on faster. The 90mm still hunts a bit at times, but there was noticeable differences between the cameras, with the A7RV able to lock on to subjects faster.

The conditions weren't such that they got to a point where the A7RV was pushed too far in low light.

Edited January 8 by oneyellowtang

[Interceptor121 765]

2 hours ago, oneyellowtang said:

@Alex_Mustard Fully agree...

We'll see what the A7RV (w/Nauticam housing) can do in Ambon in a few months.

My main reason for posting was the comment that AF on the A7IV was better than the A7RV. Having tried the A7IV in a pool, not really impressed with the AF in those conditions.

 

But you have not tried the A7RV in the same pool so you don't know yet it may be worse?

Both camera read very slow but the A7RV reads slower I think something like 1/15.

With regards to R series V vs IV there is no reason to believe the IV is better in AF. Sony has improved the overall processing so you would hope the AF is better and more accurate in addition to adding subject detection

When I look at A1 vs A7RV I see no reason why I would get an A7RV but I am an hybrid shooter not a photographer so I have a different set of evaluation criteria. From what I can see the A1 focusseesin the dark but the 90mm lens has its own issue and pulsates a lot. The lens has tons of focus breathing and that mechanism does not help the behaviour

There is a Sigma 105mm but I got the Sony at a deal price so I was tempted. Macro is not really my top priority so I will make do but to give a point of reference my GH5M2 with Panasonic 45mm hunts less and it is faster in single AF

Edited January 8 by Interceptor121

[Phil Rudin 456]

It appears that I am the first on Wetpixel to have used the Sony A7R V in the field and so I will try to answer a few more questions and make some observations. 

First I have used the A7R V with one lens the Sony FE 28-60 zoom for the purpose of testing the new Nauticam WACP-C. I chose the R V camera because high MP (61) cameras reveal flaws in lenses that lower MP cameras may not make so obvious. I currently have Nauticam and Marelux A1 housings in house and the A7R  V would only fit the Nauticam housing because of the different design philosophies between the two housings.

Please be aware that I review many of these systems for UWPMAG.com and other outlets, so my approach is different than many personally owned systems, 

Lets start with apples to apples, I see no upside to making a comparison of the A1 to the A7R V any more than comparing the A1 to the A7 IV or the Ikelite A1 housing to the Nauticam A1 housing. Most folks buy gear with a fairly narrow price point in mind. They also often buy equipment that exceeds current skill levels in hopes that better equipment rather than time in the water will improve results. This is true for terrestrial photographers as well bashing manufactures for not releasing an F/1.2 lens rather than a F/1.4 lens when many will see no difference in their results. 

Regarding the Sony A7R V it has several improvements over the A7R IV and R III and several other cameras at the same price point. One thing that Sony does more than other manufactures is trickle down new tech to lower price point cameras. The new A7R V and A7 IV have the same basic AF tech as the A-1 but with a big difference. The A7R V and A7 IV both have BSI-CMOS sensor while the Sony A-1 has a Stacked-CMOS sensor. What this means is that apples to apples, the A-1 is always going to have faster readout speeds than any camera without a Stacked sensor. This means that all data including AF speed will be faster. So no the A7R V will never AF as fast as A-1, it does however have updated AI technology that allows it to acquire some subjects more easily. They have also included in addition to people eyes, bird eyes, human body movement, insect  detection and much more. Insect detection is about as close to U/W animal detection as we have seen so far. This is something I intend to test with a macro lens when I get a proper housing. 

Other tech has been added to this camera not found in the A7R IV/III models. Some of these things may influence you to buy and others may not matter to you. The A7R V can use the CF express type A cards which move data faster, if you are using older cards your performance will lag just as it does not having a stacked sensor. This tech has trickled down from the $6500.00 A-1 to the $3900.00 A7R V and the $2500.00 A7 IV. The 5.76M-DOT EVF from A7R IV has been replace by the outstanding 9.44M-DOT X0.9 EVF from the A-1. IBIS has gone from the 5.5 stopsR IV  to 8 stops R V. 

As Alex pointed out above the A7R V has a sync speed of 1/250th of a second with mechanical shutter while the A1 has a 1/400th FF 1/500th APS-C sync speed. To be able to reach 1/400th on full frame with a mechanical sensor has nothing to do with the stacked sensor. Sony had to completely redesign the mechanical shutter by in the simplest of terms adding springs to accelerate the shutter movement over 1/250th of a second. This complete redesign did not make it into the much less expensive A7R V. This will also never make it into a camera like the Z9 with  which highest sync is 1/200th sec. This is because when shooting stills with flash and an electronic shutter speeds much above 1/200th how a distortion similar to rolling  shutter. 

As Alex pointed out you can equip the A7R V with a flash trigger that will work with HSS strobes like the Retra's or the new Backscatter MF-2's to get above 1/250th with mechanical shutter.

  

[Interceptor121 765]

It appears that I am the first on Wetpixel to have used the Sony A7R V in the field and so I will try to answer a few more questions and make some observations. 
First I have used the A7R V with one lens the Sony FE 28-60 zoom for the purpose of testing the new Nauticam WACP-C. I chose the R V camera because high MP (61) cameras reveal flaws in lenses that lower MP cameras may not make so obvious. I currently have Nauticam and Marelux A1 housings in house and the A7R  V would only fit the Nauticam housing because of the different design philosophies between the two housings.
Please be aware that I review many of these systems for UWPMAG.com and other outlets, so my approach is different than many personally owned systems, 
Lets start with apples to apples, I see no upside to making a comparison of the A1 to the A7R V any more than comparing the A1 to the A7 IV or the Ikelite A1 housing to the Nauticam A1 housing. Most folks buy gear with a fairly narrow price point in mind. They also often buy equipment that exceeds current skill levels in hopes that better equipment rather than time in the water will improve results. This is true for terrestrial photographers as well bashing manufactures for not releasing an F/1.2 lens rather than a F/1.4 lens when many will see no difference in their results. 
Regarding the Sony A7R V it has several improvements over the A7R IV and R III and several other cameras at the same price point. One thing that Sony does more than other manufactures is trickle down new tech to lower price point cameras. The new A7R V and A7 IV have the same basic AF tech as the A-1 but with a big difference. The A7R V and A7 IV both have BSI-CMOS sensor while the Sony A-1 has a Stacked-CMOS sensor. What this means is that apples to apples, the A-1 is always going to have faster readout speeds than any camera without a Stacked sensor. This means that all data including AF speed will be faster. So no the A7R V will never AF as fast as A-1, it does however have updated AI technology that allows it to acquire some subjects more easily. They have also included in addition to people eyes, bird eyes, human body movement, insect  detection and much more. Insect detection is about as close to U/W animal detection as we have seen so far. This is something I intend to test with a macro lens when I get a proper housing. 
Other tech has been added to this camera not found in the A7R IV/III models. Some of these things may influence you to buy and others may not matter to you. The A7R V can use the CF express type A cards which move data faster, if you are using older cards your performance will lag just as it does not having a stacked sensor. This tech has trickled down from the $6500.00 A-1 to the $3900.00 A7R V and the $2500.00 A7 IV. The 5.76M-DOT EVF from A7R IV has been replace by the outstanding 9.44M-DOT X0.9 EVF from the A-1. IBIS has gone from the 5.5 stopsR IV  to 8 stops R V. 
As Alex pointed out above the A7R V has a sync speed of 1/250th of a second with mechanical shutter while the A1 has a 1/400th FF 1/500th APS-C sync speed. To be able to reach 1/400th on full frame with a mechanical sensor has nothing to do with the stacked sensor. Sony had to completely redesign the mechanical shutter by in the simplest of terms adding springs to accelerate the shutter movement over 1/250th of a second. This complete redesign did not make it into the much less expensive A7R V. This will also never make it into a camera like the Z9 with  which highest sync is 1/200th sec. This is because when shooting stills with flash and an electronic shutter speeds much above 1/200th how a distortion similar to rolling  shutter. 
As Alex pointed out you can equip the A7R V with a flash trigger that will work with HSS strobes like the Retra's or the new Backscatter MF-2's to get above 1/250th with mechanical shutter.
  

Thanks Phil
One thing to note that on both the A1 and A7R5 high resolution EVF is only available when refresh rate is standard which is 60fps
The higher speed with less lag have some form of pseudo interlace and the actual resolution drops


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Phil Rudin 456]

I am aware, since I use the EVF most of the time with an optical viewfinder the high res for me is about critical review of magnified images.

 

[Interceptor121 765]

I am aware, since I use the EVF most of the time with an optical viewfinder the high res for me is about critical review of magnified images.
 

So for shooting you keep the A1 on high? That’s what I do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Phil Rudin 456]

yes, I have the new Nauticam 0.8:1 viewfinder and it is outstanding with the EVF set to high. 

[Interceptor121 765]

yes, I have the new Nauticam 0.8:1 viewfinder and it is outstanding with the EVF set to high. 

Thank you this is what am planning to buy myself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oneyellowtang 95]

@Interceptor121

Having shot the A7IV, the A7RIV, and the A7RV, all with the 90mm lens on the same subjects (small detritus on a beach) it is clear that:

For AF (above water, with Sun fairly low on the horizon) with this lens - the A7RIV is slower than the A7IV, which is slower than the new A7RV.

In this one scenario, the AF (faster to lock on a small subject) of the A7RIV subjectively about 2x slower than the A7IV on the same subject. The A7RV feels about 25% faster yet again.

When the Nauticam housing arrives will be able test this better in the pool, and then in the real world in the spring.

As @Phil Rudin mentions the A1 is both at a significantly different price point and different class of camera. I would expect the AF to be faster than the A7RV, but by less than it is over the A7IV (as they share some of the AF intelligence, but not the sensor architecture).

I also think that a blackwater dive might be the best test of this difference. It will be interesting to see what folks like @Mike Bartick are seeing throughout this season and next for any Sony gear used for BW dives (which is one reason why I will keep shooting with my D850 and D500) - not yet ready to move to a mirrorless system.

Edited January 9 by oneyellowtang

[Phil Rudin 456]

Regarding Blackwater diving Mike Barwick and I both did articles about BW for UWPMAG.com in the same back issue #121. Mike was shooting in Mexico and mine are from the Palm Beach, Florida. Mike's images are all with the D850 and 60mm macro while mine are with the A-1 and 90mm macro. I can assure you that the Sony A-1 is quite capable of excellent BW images and can keep with super fast animals like the 8cm (3 inch) Tuna attached below.

 

 

[oneyellowtang 95]

@Phil Rudin

You may have missed my point. I fully agree the A1 is a great camera, just a little high on price (at least for my daughter). I'm well aware of what @Mike Bartick shoots on BW dives, he was the one who shared the idea to shoot with the D850 & 60mm lens (in Anliao).

What I was actually referring to in that previous reference was if/when Mike starts seeing more Sony cameras (specifically A7 series) coming through Anilao (at Crystal Blue) capturing great BW images. When I was there last (and then a year later at Dumaguete) the A7 series (mostly A7III's and A7RIV's) with the 90mm lenses were struggling on BW dives (almost universally). 

I'm looking towards the future - today the Z6 & Z7 (in current form) are not (yet) performant enough to replace either my D850 or D500 specifically on BW dives. The A1 might be, but it's wee bit expensive. I'm waiting to see what the next rev of the Z9 turns into before making any kind of decisions.

Any images of smaller subjects with the A1 & 90mm lens? Any thoughts on that combination shooting BW?

[sinetwo 26]

4 hours ago, oneyellowtang said:

What I was actually referring to in that previous reference was if/when Mike starts seeing more Sony cameras (specifically A7 series) coming through Anilao (at Crystal Blue) capturing great BW images. When I was there last (and then a year later at Dumaguete) the A7 series (mostly A7III's and A7RIV's) with the 90mm lenses were struggling on BW dives (almost universally). 

This is what I've heard as well, Blackwater diving really challenges the camera - from a focusing, tracking and ISO/noise performance point of view. No doubt can newer cameras deal with noise very well, but I would mostly be concerned about acquiring and tracking. I get the feeling that these cameras are really honed in for overwater photography, and will absolutely outperform on land, especially for wildlife.

I'm hoping Nikon releases the Z8 and that we get people to try them out. If we're able to get thoughts from the most prominent blackwater photographers, they'll probably give good input to this. With my D500, I feel like my keeper rate for blackwater photos is relatively high - some critters are harder to focus on than others but if I've missed, it's usually my own fault. I would hate for that keeper rate to go down with an upgraded camera. I had friends on a recent trip struggle with the 90mm and 105mm with DSLR cameras, so perhaps the missing ingredient is a 60mm equivalent. Having said that, I'm on a 60mm on a crop so perhaps the 90mm on a full frame should be similar?

This is all theoretical from my side. However, I look forward to seeing what the immediate future holds, but for the total price of mirrorless + lenses + new housing etc., it goes without saying that no one should be happy to compromise in any area of underwater photography. I certainly won't be giving up my D500 any time soon.