Sony A7R V

[Interceptor121 713]

1 hour ago, sinetwo said:

This is what I've heard as well, Blackwater diving really challenges the camera - from a focusing, tracking and ISO/noise performance point of view. No doubt can newer cameras deal with noise very well, but I would mostly be concerned about acquiring and tracking. I get the feeling that these cameras are really honed in for overwater photography, and will absolutely outperform on land, especially for wildlife.

I'm hoping Nikon releases the Z8 and that we get people to try them out. If we're able to get thoughts from the most prominent blackwater photographers, they'll probably give good input to this. With my D500, I feel like my keeper rate for blackwater photos is relatively high - some critters are harder to focus on than others but if I've missed, it's usually my own fault. I would hate for that keeper rate to go down with an upgraded camera. I had friends on a recent trip struggle with the 90mm and 105mm with DSLR cameras, so perhaps the missing ingredient is a 60mm equivalent. Having said that, I'm on a 60mm on a crop so perhaps the 90mm on a full frame should be similar?

This is all theoretical from my side. However, I look forward to seeing what the immediate future holds, but for the total price of mirrorless + lenses + new housing etc., it goes without saying that no one should be happy to compromise in any area of underwater photography. I certainly won't be giving up my D500 any time soon.

Nikon and Canon have started later on autofocus at present Sony is still the leader not sure when and if this gap can be closed especially as mirrorless autofocus relies on sensor read is not a separate architecture

The 90mm lens hunts it does it also on land you don't need to go into blackwater diving to find out. I don't have any other lens that has this behaviour but comparing other mirrorless systems it can happen

When it comes to Sony the alternative Sigma 105 is apparently even slower to acquire focus so this remains a challenge in the sony eco system

I do not know how the new RF and Z macro lenses perform but a lot will depend on the lens not just on the autofocus of the camera

The other challenge of mirrorless cameras that in dark conditions they will need to start dropping frame rate to focus and pump up gain which means you could have trouble seeing what you are trying to focus if this moves and if you don't let the camera drop the frame rate it may not focus at all

It has always been obscure to me how nikon 3d tracking works but I suspect this is an off sensor mechanism specialised in tracking RGB patches that may do a better job in low light than a mirrorless camera that has phase difference pixels on the sensor

 

[sinetwo 17]

6 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

 I do not know how the new RF and Z macro lenses perform but a lot will depend on the lens not just on the autofocus of the camera



Indeed, a great wildlife photographer (land), Steve Perry, had this video (timestamp incl.) on autofocusing specifically, where results were mixed when comparing the same lenses against DSLR v Mirrorless camera bodies.

Of course firmware updates may have improved since for non-Z9 bodies, but I've not seen any evidence since from the Nikon camp or from fans. It seems in Nikon's instance, Z9 is better than the D850 at AF speed (not necessarily tracking) where the body is the bottleneck, even with the FTZ adapter. Where the lens is the bottleneck, I understand they'll perform the same if the same logic is applied.

Perhaps the main issue here isn't so much the mirrorless body then, but as you say the lenses and lens selection.

For me Z8 would be perfect if they include pre-release (equivalent of Olympus procapture) and it performs at least on par underwater with D500 - I know it'll outperform on land for my purposes.

[Interceptor121 713]

49 minutes ago, sinetwo said:

Indeed, a great wildlife photographer (land), Steve Perry, had this video (timestamp incl.) on autofocusing specifically, where results were mixed when comparing the same lenses against DSLR v Mirrorless camera bodies.

Of course firmware updates may have improved since for non-Z9 bodies, but I've not seen any evidence since from the Nikon camp or from fans. It seems in Nikon's instance, Z9 is better than the D850 at AF speed (not necessarily tracking) where the body is the bottleneck, even with the FTZ adapter. Where the lens is the bottleneck, I understand they'll perform the same if the same logic is applied.

Perhaps the main issue here isn't so much the mirrorless body then, but as you say the lenses and lens selection.

For me Z8 would be perfect if they include pre-release (equivalent of Olympus procapture) and it performs at least on par underwater with D500 - I know it'll outperform on land for my purposes.

I used procapture for some time topside. To be useful you need to run a quite high frame rate and when you have an external flash this is complicated or not working at all

My A1 does flash up to 30 fps but the strobe can only give very small power

[sinetwo 17]

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I used procapture for some time topside. To be useful you need to run a quite high frame rate and when you have an external flash this is complicated or not working at all

My A1 does flash up to 30 fps but the strobe can only give very small power

I think I managed to do about 3-5fps with my strobe recycle time, comfortably with the Retra's at half power. Any more and it would just be too slow to recycle in time. What strobes do you have being able to do that? Perhaps procapture is a possibility underwater, but if you're using flash then perhaps at that point you might as well just ignore procapture - I guess the only advantage then is not filling up your memory card.

[Interceptor121 713]

I think I managed to do about 3-5fps with my strobe recycle time, comfortably with the Retra's at half power. Any more and it would just be too slow to recycle in time. What strobes do you have being able to do that? Perhaps procapture is a possibility underwater, but if you're using flash then perhaps at that point you might as well just ignore procapture - I guess the only advantage then is not filling up your memory card.

No strobes thats what the challenge is
Procapture starts at 20fps while in reality your strobe can handle 3/5 fps so burst shooting is the way forward


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[Phil Rudin 443]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:36 AM, oneyellowtang said:

@Phil Rudin


Any images of smaller subjects with the A1 & 90mm lens? Any thoughts on that combination shooting BW?

Again, I did a complete Blackwater  review in UWPMAG.com that is all done with the A-1 and 90mm combination.

[oneyellowtang 80]

@Phil Rudin Helpful... thank you, can you share the title? A quick look through back issues didn't have this pop out...

 

Edited January 12 by oneyellowtang

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I really don’t see any major benefit or use for Procapture underwater, because of the fact that the majority of underwater photos are taken with flash, where procapture is not compatible. Definitely there are times that all photographers press the shutter too late - but almost always these are when we are shooting flash and miss time the perfect moment.

The exception is pelagic/big animal/bait ball type shooting when you are working without flash. However, the limiting factor on imaging here is rarely the photographer missing the moment to press the shutter. The limiting factor is usually waiting for the subjects to come into range. Or you moving yourself into range. So again, having access to images before you actually pressed the shutter isn’t especially advantageous - because we usually have lots of time waiting for the subject to be close enough and plenty of time to start the motor drive just before it is.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

On the AF question - it seems to me that Sony’s weakpoint is the 90mm lens. Perhaps we can hope that they introduce better designed macro lenses in the future to match how well their AF system works with, say, their telephotos. Maybe a 60mm and a 120mm macro would actually give nice range of options and would compliment the 90mm. The 60mm would be valuable on the APS-C Sonys too.

[Interceptor121 713]

7 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I really don’t see any major benefit or use for Procapture underwater, because of the fact that the majority of underwater photos are taken with flash, where procapture is not compatible. Definitely there are times that all photographers press the shutter too late - but almost always these are when we are shooting flash and miss time the perfect moment.

The exception is pelagic/big animal/bait ball type shooting when you are working without flash. However, the limiting factor on imaging here is rarely the photographer missing the moment to press the shutter. The limiting factor is usually waiting for the subjects to come into range. Or you moving yourself into range. So again, having access to images before you actually pressed the shutter isn’t especially advantageous - because we usually have lots of time waiting for the subject to be close enough and plenty of time to start the motor drive just before it is.

Pro-Capture is the perfect tools for shots like splashing water, birds coming on and off a feeding plate etc

In essence good for stalking limitation is the lack of flash support

I do not see a benefit of procapture at all I see a benefit of burst shooting this is avaialble but the strobe runs out of power depending on the power settings

[Interceptor121 713]

7 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

On the AF question - it seems to me that Sony’s weakpoint is the 90mm lens. Perhaps we can hope that they introduce better designed macro lenses in the future to match how well their AF system works with, say, their telephotos. Maybe a 60mm and a 120mm macro would actually give nice range of options and would compliment the 90mm. The 60mm would be valuable on the APS-C Sonys too.

The Canon RF-100 macro is reported to be much faster moving through the focus range.

The Sony 90mm has several focus limiter settings however none of them makes it really snappy

I also have to add the environment brigthtness does not really help the 90mm this lens goes back and forth also when the scene is bright

There is a sigma 105mm lens however report say that it is as slow or slower than Sony

The Sony 50mm macro is also known to go back and forth so focal lenght does not seem to be helping the case here

There are many considerations in the choice of a system but I would say that if macro is a priority currently the RF system is better than others. Unfortunately is a closed system with no 3rd party lenses and it is the most expensive lens ecosystem on the market right now

Canon has also great image quality and I am not talking about tests here am talking about how the pictures look

If I was not sitting on lots of glass that can be easily reused with Sony and IF the Canon R5 was not overheating as hell I would have considered as the ergonomics of Sony are a bit naff

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Good info.

9 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

There are many considerations in the choice of a system but I would say that if macro is a priority currently the RF system is better than others. Unfortunately is a closed system with no 3rd party lenses and it is the most expensive lens ecosystem on the market right now

Good point. I think that is an important takeaway in UW autofocus discussions. It matters little for UW shooting which camera is best with people/motorbikes/eagles. What matters is how it focuses with a macro lens. Wide Angle photography underwater is not really an AF challenge. But macro really is. So I think when we talk about camera’s AF for UW shooting, there is little point discussing its AF in general and a lot of point discussing how a camera focuses with macro lenses. 

Hopefully having a lead it so many areas with the camera tech and models, Sony does something about its macro lenses as they seem like the bottleneck.

[Interceptor121 713]

Just now, Alex_Mustard said:

Good info.

Good point. I think that is an important takeaway in UW autofocus discussions. It matters little for UW shooting which camera is best with people/motorbikes/eagles. What matters is how it focuses with a macro lens. Wide Angle photography underwater is not really an AF challenge. But macro really is. So I think when we talk about camera’s AF for UW shooting, there is little point discussing its AF in general and a lot of point discussing how a camera focuses with macro lenses. 

Hopefully having a lead it so many areas with the camera tech and models, Sony does something about its macro lenses as they seem like the bottleneck.

The current design of macro lenses seems to be optimised to favour IQ and manual focus. A key feature of the Sony 90mm is the focus clutch. On land while there are some people shooting spiders etc with macro lenses flying bugs or similar dragonflies, bees, etc are usually shot with long telephote and extension tubes or long telephoto and close up adapters. Long telephoto focus much faster you would not go around with a macro lens for those

Macro lenses are more for semistatic subjects it seems where people nail the focus with the clutch no tracking and any of the other things discussed here apply

Another issue unrelated to this thread is that many macro lenses are also optimised for sharpness at wide aperture as the user will focus stack so when you look at the Sony top performance is at f/4 - f/5.6 most lenses also stop at f/22

As far as I know the Canon RF-100 is not much of a redesign of the original Canon EF 100mm and as a lens would better fit an underwater use case of shooting at small apertures with autofocus

I do now know much about the Nikon Z mount so cannot comment there.

[ChrisRoss 150]

46 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

As far as I know the Canon RF-100 is not much of a redesign of the original Canon EF 100mm and as a lens would better fit an underwater use case of shooting at small apertures with autofocus

 

Though it unfortunately suffers from focus shift if you focus wide open at f8 the focus has shifted enough to put whatever you focused on out of focus at high magnifications.   Canon apparently has said it's a design feature and won't be fixed which seems astounding as it could easily be fixed in firmware.  I did find one post that suggested adjusting the SA control ring a little cancels out the focus shift.

[Interceptor121 713]

Though it unfortunately suffers from focus shift if you focus wide open at f8 the focus has shifted enough to put whatever you focused on out of focus at high magnifications.   Canon apparently has said it's a design feature and won't be fixed which seems astounding as it could easily be fixed in firmware.  I did find one post that suggested adjusting the SA control ring a little cancels out the focus shift.

Ouch


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[Phil Rudin 443]

6 hours ago, oneyellowtang said:

@Phil Rudin Helpful... thank you, can you share the title? A quick look through back issues didn't have this pop out...

 

Click on back issues, type Phil Rudin into the search engine and it will list my over 100 articles published. I have two on blackwater. 

[Interceptor121 713]

6 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

Click on back issues, type Phil Rudin into the search engine and it will list my over 100 articles published. I have two on blackwater. 

110 - 111 - 121 are all good reads on this topic and the 90mm

[Phil Rudin 443]

I have been well aware over the past six or seven years the that Sony FE 90mm F/2.8 macro has been a much maligned lens in regard to its auto focus speed. I first used this lens with the Sony A7/A7R II cameras and it was in a word horrible. This is an issue that involves the quality of the camera AF and not the lens. 

At around the same time Jim Decker from Backscatter reviewed the Nikon D850 which has the same basic AF system as the D5 and D500. As we all know this system is excellent with macro lenses and the D850 because the prime choice for many Backscatter staff and is still one of the cameras they recommend most.

Spring forward a few years and Jim Decker reviewed the Sony A7R IV. In this review Jim said that the Sony 90mm macro had excellent image quality but focused very slowly. Jim also said that the Canon 100mm IS macro with Sigma MC-11 adapter was much faster on the A7R IV than the Sony 90mm. I tried both and did not find that to be the case but that may be because I was configuring the AF differently than Jim. If you have heard that the Canon IS macro and Sigma MC-11 are faster than the Sony 90mm macro Jim's review is likely ground zero for the original source. 

Fast forward again and Jim reviewed the Sony A-1. In that review Jim said that the A-1 and 90mm macro combo is the best autofocusing macro lens he has ever used.

Fast forward again and Jim reviewed the A7 IV and again the AF was on par with the A-1 using the 90mm macro. I expect that when the A7R V is reviewed with the 90mm macro results will be in the same range. 

Many of use know Jim Decker to be a through, reliable and unbiased source of information regarding the latest gear. I would suggest that those interested in the Sony FE 90mm macro should consider reading his reviews when considering equipment.

 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Backscatter definitely know their stuff. But all camera shops are motivated by their customers wanting to upgrade their gear. Fortunately lots of us are motivated to upgrade our gear too!

[sinetwo 17]

6 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Backscatter definitely know their stuff. But all camera shops are motivated by their customers wanting to upgrade their gear. Fortunately lots of us are motivated to upgrade our gear too!

Indeed, I love their overviews, but honestly I've never once seen an unfavourable "review" from them ☺ 

[Interceptor121 713]

Indeed, I love their overviews, but honestly I've never once seen an unfavourable "review" from them  

I am not Jim Decker nor Phil Rudin and I pay for the equipment I use
Overall within 4 people I know that have the 90mm underwater of which 2 have an A1 , 1 has an A7RIV and one an older model the consistent message is this lens hunts a lot. One person who take a prop underwater to set the camera at the right focus range
Looking at topside above my experience with this lens I have so far never heard anyone saying this lens has a blazing fast autofocus, quite the opposite
If someone has found the magic trick to make this lens work quicker I would like to know
Looking at how the lens is built and the amount of focus breathing you can tell from the outset that the lens will have certain behaviour
What would help is if the lens took less to do the full scan of the focus range (which it does a lot of)
Contrary to common belief it is entirely possible to anticipate how a lens will focus underwater to a good degree of accuracy so will work more on testing before I get in the pool


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[Phil Rudin 443]

As a sidebar regarding using the A7R V in existing housings Ikelite has announced an update kit that allows the A7R V to be used in the Ikelite A7R IV housing. It includes a redesigned camera tray and a user replaceable screw that allows the mode dial lock to be accessed. I suspect these updates may carry over to some (not all) other manufactures housings.

[Architeuthis 138]

21 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

As a sidebar regarding using the A7R V in existing housings Ikelite has announced an update kit that allows the A7R V to be used in the Ikelite A7R IV housing. It includes a redesigned camera tray and a user replaceable screw that allows the mode dial lock to be accessed. I suspect these updates may carry over to some (not all) other manufactures housings.

 

This sounds very interesting, I guess it should, in principle, be possible also with Nauticam housings (when it works for Ikelite)?...

Is it this kit?: https://www.ikelite.com/products/update-kit-for-sony-a7r-v?_pos=12&_fid=8d32657aa&_ss=c

The linked kit is for update of the A7IV housing to A7RV. Could it also be used to update a A7RIV housing to A7RV?

 Is a A7RIV to A7RV update kit also available?

 

Wolfgang

 

[Phil Rudin 443]

32 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

 

This sounds very interesting, I guess it should, in principle, be possible also with Nauticam housings (when it works for Ikelite)?...

Is it this kit?: https://www.ikelite.com/products/update-kit-for-sony-a7r-v?_pos=12&_fid=8d32657aa&_ss=c

The linked kit is for update of the A7IV housing to A7RV. Could it also be used to update a A7RIV housing to A7RV?

 Is a A7RIV to A7RV update kit also available?

 

Wolfgang

 

The Ikelite upgrade kit is spicificley to allow the new Sony A7R V to be used in the Ikelite A7R IV housing. It is not a universal kit for all manufactures if that is what you are asking. As I originally stated in my review for the WACP-C in current uwpmag.com  I  used A7R V in the Nauticam Sony A1 housing NA-A1. My feeling is that if you want to convert that housing the tray needs to be redesigned because with the A1 tray the LCD presses up against the rear of the housing and could cause damage to the LCD. I don't have an A7R IV housing to try the A7R V in but unlike the Nauticam A1 housing when I tried to fit the A7R V into the Marelux A1 housing you could not close the housing at all. Each manufacture has a different approach to design so each housing type and brand would need to be tested. The A7R V LCD is thicker than the A7R IV and A1 LCD's as a result if you have a housing like the Nauticam housing that is designed to allow the screen to tilt it is more likely that a workaround can be found V. a housing which is designed for the LCD to remain flat against the rear of the housing. 

Edited January 14 by Phil Rudin

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I will be giving the A7R V a run over the next couple of weeks here in Cayman. Will surely be back for advice and to share findings/pictures.