Sony A7R V

[TmxDiver 39]

3 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I will be giving the A7R V a run over the next couple of weeks here in Cayman. Will surely be back for advice and to share findings/pictures.

 

Which lens do you have mounted in there? 

Are you also going to be testing any of the WACP-X variants?

Thanks,

- brett

 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Canon fisheye. Fisheye is the best lens for this destination.

I also have both WACP-1 and WWL-1B to test with the 28-60mm. I'll try and do them on back to back dives so I can comment on how they compare. 

Alex

[TmxDiver 39]

18 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Canon fisheye. Fisheye is the best lens for this destination.

I also have both WACP-1 and WWL-1B to test with the 28-60mm. I'll try and do them on back to back dives so I can comment on how they compare. 

Alex

Thanks. Just curious - which adapter are you using?

Given all the recent discussions, maybe somebody there will have a WACP-C that you can test as well.

- brett

[Architeuthis 138]

15 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

The Ikelite upgrade kit is spicificley to allow the new Sony A7R V to be used in the Ikelite A7R IV housing. It is not a universal kit for all manufactures if that is what you are asking. As I originally stated in my review for the WACP-C in current uwpmag.com  I  used A7R V in the Nauticam Sony A1 housing NA-A1. My feeling is that if you want to convert that housing the tray needs to be redesigned because with the A1 tray the LCD presses up against the rear of the housing and could cause damage to the LCD. I don't have an A7R IV housing to try the A7R V in but unlike the Nauticam A1 housing when I tried to fit the A7R V into the Marelux A1 housing you could not close the housing at all. Each manufacture has a different approach to design so each housing type and brand would need to be tested. The A7R V LCD is thicker than the A7R IV and A1 LCD's as a result if you have a housing like the Nauticam housing that is designed to allow the screen to tilt it is more likely that a workaround can be found V. a housing which is designed for the LCD to remain flat against the rear of the housing. 

I (hopefully) will get soon a second hand Nauticam housing for A7RIV (NA-A7RIV; old version, not the NA-a2020). I know that the Ikelite tray will not fit into the Nauticam housing, but I wonder whether an upgrade to A7RV is possible (I will buy the camera after having the housing here and the price difference from RIV o RV is not really big). I guess the chances are close to zero?

 

Wolfgang

 

[Phil Rudin 443]

Regarding housings Nauticam housings for Sony cameras have a tray where the LCD screen tilts a few degrees rather than sitting flat against the back of the camera body. This allows a better view of the LCD when in the water. With several other manufactures the LCD does not tilt.

The Sony A-1 and A7R IV LCD screens are 6 X 56 X 77mm while the A7R V LVD is 9 X 59 X 80mm. Because the A7R V LCD is 3mm thicker and 3mm taller (longer) it is likely to jam up against the rear of many housings. This was my experience using the A7R V in the Nauticam NA-A1 housing. The other issue is that the R-V has a mode dial lock which older housings are not designed for. This is not an issue if you just set the camera to manual but if you want to move the mode dial it could present a problem.

In the past Nauticam has offered trays to allow older Sony cameras to work in newer housings, like the A7s III in the A-1 housing. It remains to be seen if others will follow Ikelite and offer a tray to fit a new camera into an older housing. 

[Phil Rudin 443]

18 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Canon fisheye. Fisheye is the best lens for this destination.

I also have both WACP-1 and WWL-1B to test with the 28-60mm. I'll try and do them on back to back dives so I can comment on how they compare. 

Alex

Hi Alex, completely off topic but I have been ask about WACP-C and D850 lens selection. Just curious if your prototype has the N120 rather than the WACP-C N100 mount. If it is N100 what extension did you use for 28-70 and did you get full zoom through. Thanks in advance.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

1 hour ago, Phil Rudin said:

Hi Alex, completely off topic but I have been ask about WACP-C and D850 lens selection. Just curious if your prototype has the N120 rather than the WACP-C N100 mount. If it is N100 what extension did you use for 28-70 and did you get full zoom through. Thanks in advance.

 The prototype WAPC-C (which is actually labelled WWL-DRY) is just the lens - without the extension ring and buoyancy rings (the prototype does not have them. In that form it allows the Nikon 28-70mm to be used with the full zoom range. I've not seen a production WACP-C yet to compare, but I suspect if you take off the collars it is N100 on the lens itself. I think the prototype is N100 on the back of the lens, like the WACP-1 does on the actual lens (if you take off the buoyancy rings). It is at home, so I can't check. 

Alex

[ChrisRoss 150]

14 hours ago, Architeuthis said:

I (hopefully) will get soon a second hand Nauticam housing for A7RIV (NA-A7RIV; old version, not the NA-a2020). I know that the Ikelite tray will not fit into the Nauticam housing, but I wonder whether an upgrade to A7RV is possible (I will buy the camera after having the housing here and the price difference from RIV o RV is not really big). I guess the chances are close to zero?

 

Wolfgang

 

Depends specifically on the thickness of the camera, I'm assuming the design is similar to my Olympus housing where there is a stop up front which limits how far the camera can be inserted and stabilizes the camera.  I think the Ikelite housings have a greater degree of freedom as there tends to be more room around the camera so potentially easier to adapt.

[Interceptor121 713]

Comprehensive review from dpreview on the camera

The subject detection is not applicable as well as some of the ergonomics when the camera is inside a housing (i.e. fully articulating screen) however it gives a good idea of the strength and weakness

The IQ is identical to the A7RIV as suspected so it boils down to the feature that are going to make a difference when the camera is inside the housing.

 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Early impressions - I am finding the A7RV a very easy camera to like. Once you get used to Sony-speak it is an easy camera to set up and shoot. EVFs are not optical viewfinders. But the A7RV has the best EVF I have used so far (had R5 and A7RIV in the pool yesterday). Just as an SLR viewfinder had negatives and positives when you first tried it, compared to the Nikonos 15mm viewfinder, I think that EVFs need to be thought about as a different solution with obvious negatives and positives compared to an SLR viewfinder. Have 3 Sony users on workshop - 2 with A7RIVs - and they are all considering the upgrade.

The AF on the Sony is the best I have used underwater. I have shot older Sony's and Nikons and the R5, but not A1 or Z9 underwater. For wide angle it just works (but then so do most modern cameras). It is excellent at tracking fish with macro lens. It is the first mirrorless I have used that I judge better than any SLR I have used. Animal and Insect subject recognition work on fish, but more so the cameras generic subject detection (with subject recognition turned off) is just great at locking on to the subject and tracking it. The AF is a little slow to get going sometimes, but once up and running it is hugely impressive. It didn't work as well in vey dark places, deep under overhangs, but need to do more tests. To date favourite modes are AF-C with WIDE for wide, and Zone for macro. For macro I have used with and without subject recognition.

The Sony lens choice for UW is still lacking and is the biggest weakness currently of considering Sony. Needs a native fisheye. Canon fisheye on Metabones works well, but always feels like a temporary solution. Native would surely squeeze out more from the image quality. Macro lens range needs expanding and updating - UW photography always demands more than one focal length of macro (for my SLR I brought 60mm, 105mm and 150mm on this trip). I would love to see a new generation 60mm and 120mm to compliment the 90mm. The 90mm is impressively sharp, though. The 28-60mm is a mini-marvel with the WWL-1B and WACP-1. I have only tried the former so far (pool tests show corners perfect at f/9, becoming limiting at f/6.3 for my standards, unless in blue water). I will do a comparison test of the WACP-1 during next week's pool session. With better lens choice the Sony system would be hard to fault.

Image quality is excellent. I struggle to get a WB out of camera that I feel is perfect. I am experimenting both with using AUTO and a K WB. Obviously can be tweaked in post, but I'd rather the camera got it closer. Also I am still not quite happy with how the images look on the camera - they look noticeably better when you download them. Look a bit "compact" when reviewed on camera. Maybe I need to play with JPG settings. 

I am currently using Nauticam trigger, and have a max synch speed of 1/200th, which is a limit. I have an UW Technics one to fit and HSS flashes too, but I want to give the 1/200th limit a fair test, to see how limiting it really is, once I am used to it. For now I am just going to drop my ISO by a couple of clicks and turn my strobes up.

[JYk 19]

Thanks @Alex_Mustard. Just a short question. If you're comparing the A7 IV and the A7RV, do you think for underwater people should save the money for more MP or do you think the A7 IV with its 32MP and current performance is good enough for 95% of shoots when it comes to wide angle or macro?

Edited January 16 by JYk

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I don't think there is a need to chase megapixels. This book is published this week. 

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/britains-living-seas-hannah-rudd/1140777697

My photo on the cover is a vertical, cropped from a horizontal. Shot on a 12MP D300 (which was borrowed). So that's about 5-6MP. So it is hard to say you must have 60, rather than 30, when far less a needed for most real world solutions!

One thing I like about Sony is that they are making multiple cameras without big changes in the camera shape - so it is possible to fit different bodies into the same housing. Allowing you to have different cameras for different shoots, or upgrade more easily when new tech comes along.

Alex

 

[Phil Rudin 443]

4 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I am currently using Nauticam trigger, and have a max synch speed of 1/200th, which is a limit. I have an UW Technics one to fit and HSS flashes too, but I want to give the 1/200th limit a fair test, to see how limiting it really is, once I am used to it. For now I am just going to drop my ISO by a couple of clicks and turn my strobes up.

Hi Alex, I know you are busy but curious about the max sync of 1/200th. I have used the A7R V with the UWTechnics flash trigger and the Marelux manual flash trigger and both sync at the rated 1/250th sec. with mechanical shutter.Are you perhaps shooting in electronic?

[Alex_Mustard 0]

My understanding is that I can have 1/250th with the UW-Technics trigger, but not with the current generation Nauticam trigger, which is limited to 1/200th. I will fit the UW Technics one when I get a break in the workshop. But it is also very possible that I have some settings wrong! 

[Interceptor121 713]

49 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

My understanding is that I can have 1/250th with the UW-Technics trigger, but not with the current generation Nauticam trigger, which is limited to 1/200th. I will fit the UW Technics one when I get a break in the workshop. But it is also very possible that I have some settings wrong! 

https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2230/v1/en/contents/TP0002919994.html

Xsync is 1/250 with sync cord. The Nauticam trigger normally goes as fast as you can but you start seeing the curtain

For example it syncs to 1/400 with my GH5

[Alex_Mustard 0]

I get the curtain coming down from the top at 1/250th.

Also much happier with the look of the images on the camera today - not using Auto WB.

[Interceptor121 713]

I get the curtain coming down from the top at 1/250th.
Also much happier with the look of the images on the camera today - not using Auto WB.

Interesting
Jpegs from my A1 are not great however colors are accurate
Where it goes overboard is contrast saturation and sharpening


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChrisRoss 150]

What happens with Sony cameras is that the sync speed is restricted unless they detect a Sony flash attached.  Manual flash triggers just use the X-sync contacts on the hotshoe and don't report the presence of a flash, so only get the standard sync speed.  Triggers like the UWT report as a Sony flash attached as this is required for TTL to work.

[Interceptor121 713]

What happens with Sony cameras is that the sync speed is restricted unless they detect a Sony flash attached.  Manual flash triggers just use the X-sync contacts on the hotshoe and don't report the presence of a flash, so only get the standard sync speed.  Triggers like the UWT report as a Sony flash attached as this is required for TTL to work.

No 1/250 is the speed with synch cord which uses just xsync and first curtain

There is a lag somewhere in the response of the trigger or strobes

The A1 has an expansion mode that is available only using the hot shoe yet the nauticam trigger reaches 1/400 even is sync cord only does 1/320

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Had the chance (thanks Chip) to shoot the A7RIV and A7RV back to back today with the 90mm to evaluate autofocus. Few notes below.

The IV is immediately inferior in terms of AF with the 90mm. My baseline is Nikon SLRs, and I would say that the A7RIV is poorer than the Nikon D850 for AF. While I would say that the A7RV is quite clearly superior to the Nikon. Shooting reef fish and life.

The IV is at its best for shooting larger reef fish (butterflyfish), and in this size range and in bright conditions is very good. In these conditions the difference with the V is small. But the IV is much poorer than the V in lower light focusing (subjects in shade) and with smaller subjects. Slower to acquire, more hunting, locking onto the wrong subject in the frame etc. The V has an uncanny knack of picking the right subject in the frame - the fish, rather than the reef - the IV likes focusing on the reef much more. Shooting them back to back, I was surprised by the size of the difference. 

I would be less concerned for wide angle, where AF is less of a differentiator. 

The difference in the EVF is also very significant - and immediately obvious. Won't be borrowing the IV again. 

Alex

 

[Architeuthis 138]

9 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Had the chance (thanks Chip) to shoot the A7RIV and A7RV back to back today with the 90mm to evaluate autofocus. Few notes below.

The IV is immediately inferior in terms of AF with the 90mm. My baseline is Nikon SLRs, and I would say that the A7RIV is poorer than the Nikon D850 for AF. While I would say that the A7RV is quite clearly superior to the Nikon. Shooting reef fish and life.

The IV is at its best for shooting larger reef fish (butterflyfish), and in this size range and in bright conditions is very good. In these conditions the difference with the V is small. But the IV is much poorer than the V in lower light focusing (subjects in shade) and with smaller subjects. Slower to acquire, more hunting, locking onto the wrong subject in the frame etc. The V has an uncanny knack of picking the right subject in the frame - the fish, rather than the reef - the IV likes focusing on the reef much more. Shooting them back to back, I was surprised by the size of the difference. 

I would be less concerned for wide angle, where AF is less of a differentiator. 

The difference in the EVF is also very significant - and immediately obvious. Won't be borrowing the IV again. 

Alex

 

This is great information, thanks a lot, Alex!

 

The Nikon D850 is a high standard, regarding macro AF. May I ask how you would rate the AF of the Sony A7RIV for macro in comparison to MFT cameras with the 60mm or 45mm macro lenses (with CDAF (e.g. EM5II) and PDAF (e.g. EM1II))?

 

I am asking, since I am in the process of upgrading from Oly EM1II to Sony FF. I could now acquire a fairly priced second hand Nauticam housing for A7RIV (and buy the camera body when I have the housing here), but in case macro AF is inferior to what I already have now, I would step back, spend the extra 3k (difference between RIV used and RV new; housing and camera) and go for a new A7RV (in case macro AF is comparable to the EM1II, this would suffice for me, it is already o.k., but not outstandingly)...

 

Thanks, Wolfgang

 

Edited January 17 by Architeuthis

[Interceptor121 713]

9 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Had the chance (thanks Chip) to shoot the A7RIV and A7RV back to back today with the 90mm to evaluate autofocus. Few notes below.

The IV is immediately inferior in terms of AF with the 90mm. My baseline is Nikon SLRs, and I would say that the A7RIV is poorer than the Nikon D850 for AF. While I would say that the A7RV is quite clearly superior to the Nikon. Shooting reef fish and life.

The IV is at its best for shooting larger reef fish (butterflyfish), and in this size range and in bright conditions is very good. In these conditions the difference with the V is small. But the IV is much poorer than the V in lower light focusing (subjects in shade) and with smaller subjects. Slower to acquire, more hunting, locking onto the wrong subject in the frame etc. The V has an uncanny knack of picking the right subject in the frame - the fish, rather than the reef - the IV likes focusing on the reef much more. Shooting them back to back, I was surprised by the size of the difference. 

I would be less concerned for wide angle, where AF is less of a differentiator. 

The difference in the EVF is also very significant - and immediately obvious. Won't be borrowing the IV again. 

Alex

 

I guess this sorts out the IV vs V. It seems Sony redesign of the AF engine makes a big difference.

For reference the cheaper A7IV is also more advanced than the A7R4 according to topside benchmarks but it has less megapixels if that matter

I would be interested to understand more specifically if the subject detection was on or off when the V was choosing where to focus. Sony has this idea to look for eyes so you see a box first and then a smaller green box on the eye when it finds it. For me if it does not find the eye it is better to override the camera and use flexible spot and tracking by yourself

[Alex_Mustard 0]

2 hours ago, Architeuthis said:

The Nikon D850 is a high standard, regarding macro AF. May I ask how you would rate the AF of the Sony A7RIV for macro in comparison to MFT cameras with the 60mm or 45mm macro lenses (with CDAF (e.g. EM5II) and PDAF (e.g. EM1II))?

I've really not shot enough of the different cameras properly to be able to answer. We do have 4 x other Sony's here this week, 2 x R5 and 3 x MFT cameras - but it is best for my group to concentrate on their shooting then doing too much swapping of cameras.  I'd wait for Phil or Jim Decker's opinions on this, as they really have the experience testing the different cameras, that I don't have. 

The main reason for me using the A7RV is really to compare it to the SLRs. A huge number of SLR shooters know mirrorless is the future, but are unsure whether that future is here now or is still in the future. The housing market is a still stalled because people are sticking with their 5Ds, D850s, D500s and 7Ds. I feel the A7RV is interesting because it is in the same price bracket as these SLRs were when new and potentially offers a superior underwater shooting experience (perhaps the first mirrorless to do so).

[sinetwo 17]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

For me if it does not find the eye it is better to override the camera and use flexible spot and tracking by yourself

As long as it is quick at acquiring focus and tracking with flexible spot (comparing to D500+60mm/105mm), I'd be extremely happy with that. As that is not a step down from what SLR shooters are generally used to.

Can't wait to see proper reviews, ideally comparing the D850/D500 to the A7Rv. I'm very happy with my 60mm on a D500, which is the equivalent of a 90mm, so I'm hoping if that AF issues are good in low light situations and comparable, this is a worthy contender. Now I just need Sony to introduce Olympus Pro-capture / Nikon pre-release functionality for wildlife!

Edited January 17 by sinetwo

[Interceptor121 713]

26 minutes ago, sinetwo said:

As long as it is quick at acquiring focus and tracking with flexible spot (comparing to D500+60mm/105mm), I'd be extremely happy with that. As that is not a step down from what SLR shooters are generally used to.

Can't wait to see proper reviews, ideally comparing the D850/D500 to the A7Rv. I'm very happy with my 60mm on a D500, which is the equivalent of a 90mm, so I'm hoping if that AF issues are good in low light situations and comparable, this is a worthy contender. Now I just need Sony to introduce Olympus Pro-capture / Nikon pre-release functionality for wildlife!

Procapture at 30 fps is not very useful. Due to the high megapixel count those cameras run out of memory with too many frames (30 frames at 50 MB each is 1500MB) 

Most pre-flight movement need actually 50/60 fps and that means 4GB on board which is a way away from what cameras do today which is normally 2 GB RAM at best