lambee01 22 Posted February 2 16 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said: I did not know the 230mm is not half sphere it looks pretty large to me but I have not checked it I would be interested seeing shots at f/8 with the 140mm dome and any fisheye lens Here some examples (thenks to Lightroom and search tools). Not the shots i am most prpoud of (on the contrary, but just to answer your question). Not talking about cornes, you see also that at f/8, the the depth of filed drops dramatically. 3 photos at 100 ISO. 1/40th (f/9) or 1/60th (f/8), 15mm Fisheye behind 140mm DP 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 Just now, lambee01 said: Here some examples (thenks to Lightroom and search tools). Not the shots i am most prpoud of (on the contrary, but just to answer your question). Not talking about cornes, you see also that at f/8, the the depth of filed drops dramatically. 3 photos at 100 ISO. 1/40th (f/9) or 1/60th (f/8), 15mm Fisheye behind 140mm DP Thank you as always with fisheye shots the edges are dark however from shot 2 I do not see that the edges are particularly blurry I think f/11 would probably be adequate for most Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambee01 22 Posted February 2 3 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said: When it comes to sony autofocus it also does not focus with the lens wide open by default the lens is actually as you have it set unless you select aperture drive and then it will focus wide open. I am still struggling to see if the aperture drive brings any benefit at all FYI, with my A1 (ar A7 rIV) on land, i am not using Aperture drive, unless really low light and using aperture above f/9, but UW, i always use Aperture drive since most of my shot, what ever the lens are above f/8. AF is then performed Aperture wide open. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambee01 22 Posted February 2 4 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said: Thank you as always with fisheye shots the edges are dark however from shot 2 I do not see that the edges are particularly blurry I think f/11 would probably be adequate for most Another one to answer you question about corners. F/8, ISO 100, 1/60th, DP140. Corners are acceptable, but DOF is much lower at f/8 than above f/11 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 3 minutes ago, lambee01 said: FYI, with my A1 (ar A7 rIV) on land, i am not using Aperture drive, unless really low light and using aperture above f/9, but UW, i always use Aperture drive since most of my shot, what ever the lens are above f/8. AF is then performed Aperture wide open. Good point. Sony documentation is clear as mud on how things work so what I said is what seems to happen but I am not totally sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 Just now, lambee01 said: Another one to answer you question about corners. F/8, ISO 100, 1/60th, DP140. Corners are acceptable, but DOF is much lower at f/8 than above f/11 Yes but this happens also if you focus on a widget on land close to the lens the depth of field will lack as you are focussing very close This is a separate topic from the edges item So if I am shooting at 1 meter with f/8 I will have depth of field and the edges will be fine If I shoot on top of the dome edges or not you need to stop down the lens if you want to capture the background but some times for close focus I actually want to blur or darken the background so it really depends Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Architeuthis 156 Posted February 2 1 hour ago, lambee01 said: @Alex_Mustard Happy to hear you used both and liked both. I am personnaly using the Sigma 15mm Fisheye and not the Canon 8-15, hence results might be different. However, and i am NOT a specialist nor an expert in Optical Physics, but the curvature of the 140 Dome Port is half a sphere when the curvature of the 230 Dome port is much much larger, and all UW housing manufacturers (Nauticam, but also Subal, Seacam, BS_Kinetics, Seas and Sea, Aquatica etc...) recommend half sphere (hence the DP 140) because of the 180° field of view of the fisheye, which in addition is constructed with a spherical projection and not a rectilinear one. Hence correction of diffraction needs a half sphere and not a dome with lager curvature. Experienced based, unless i want to do split shots where i would use the DP 230, i always use my FE lense behind the 140 Dome port. Also looking at shots done at f/8 - f/11, corners are less sharp Both Nauticam 140 and 230 domeports are hemispheres, perfect suitable for 180° AOV and fisheye lenses (https://www.nauticam.com/collections/n120-ports/products/230mm-optical-glass-fisheye-dome-port-ii). The difference is the radius of the spheres, r=70 mm for the 140 and r=120 mm for the 230 domeport. The virtual image produced by the 140 is smaller and closer to the domeport compared to the one produced by the 230, hence IQ, especially in the corners, is expected to be better with 230. Whther the difference is significant in practice is the question... The big (Nauticam) domeport for rectilinear lenses that is a smaller section of a sphere than a hemisphere (but has biggest radius), and hence is theoretically not optimal for diagonal 180° fisheye is the Nauticam 250 domeport (radius=160mm; minimum focal length that allows perfect positioning would be 17mm; https://www.nauticam.com/products/n120-250mm-optical-glass-wide-angle-port-ii9). Wolfgang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 Just now, Architeuthis said: Both Nauticam 140 and 230 domeports are hemispheres, perfect suitable for 180° AOV and fisheye lenses (https://www.nauticam.com/collections/n120-ports/products/230mm-optical-glass-fisheye-dome-port-ii). The difference is the radius of the spheres, r=70 mm for the 140 and r=120 mm for the 230 domeport. The virtual image produced by the 140 is smaller and closer to the domeport compared to the one produced by the 230, hence IQ, especially in the corners, is expected to be better with 230. Whther the difference is significant in practice is the question... The big (Nauticam) domeport for rectilinear lenses that is a smaller section of a sphere than a hemisphere (but has biggest radius), and hence is theoretically not optimal for diagonal 180° fisheye is the Nauticam 250 domeport (radius=160mm; minimum focal length that allows perfect positioning would be 17mm; https://www.nauticam.com/products/n120-250mm-optical-glass-wide-angle-port-ii9). Wolfgang The 230mm is not a full emisphere if the radius is indeed 120mm However a fisheye when used in standard not circular mode does not have 180 degrees field of view Looking at the canon 8-15mm diagonal field of view is 175 30 115/5=23 arctan(23)=87.5 87.5x2=175 We can conclude that with perfect positioning of the Canon 8-15mm in a 230mm lens there will actually be a small vignetting the lens needs to go in ever so slightly and this will induce some barrel distortion This will reduce the field of view and make the edges more blurry to which extent this needs to be tested At the end I am convinced that the most important factor is portability we spend tons of time talking about edges but who really cares about what's there? The strobes can't even cover that field of view anyway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambee01 22 Posted February 2 28 minutes ago, Architeuthis said: Both Nauticam 140 and 230 domeports are hemispheres, perfect suitable for 180° AOV and fisheye lenses (https://www.nauticam.com/collections/n120-ports/products/230mm-optical-glass-fisheye-dome-port-ii). The difference is the radius of the spheres, r=70 mm for the 140 and r=120 mm for the 230 domeport. The virtual image produced by the 140 is smaller and closer to the domeport compared to the one produced by the 230, hence IQ, especially in the corners, is expected to be better with 230. Whther the difference is significant in practice is the question... The big (Nauticam) domeport for rectilinear lenses that is a smaller section of a sphere than a hemisphere (but has biggest radius), and hence is theoretically not optimal for diagonal 180° fisheye is the Nauticam 250 domeport (radius=160mm; minimum focal length that allows perfect positioning would be 17mm; https://www.nauticam.com/products/n120-250mm-optical-glass-wide-angle-port-ii9). Wolfgang Wolfgang, what i tried to say when saying that the 230 is not half sphere, yes it is an half spehere, but NOT cut by a plane passing through the center of the sphere like it is with the DP 140. Tried to picture what i meant with this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 8 minutes ago, lambee01 said: Wolfgang, what i tried to say when saying that the 230 is not half sphere, yes it is an half spehere, but NOT cut by a plane passing through the center of the sphere like it is with the DP 140. Tried to picture what i meant with this I have provided the exact calculation. The cut is almost an hemisphere is will support up to 175 degrees The image that you provided is more dramatic in reality the line is very close to the diameter 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Architeuthis 156 Posted February 2 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said: I have provided the exact calculation. The cut is almost an hemisphere is will support up to 175 degrees The image that you provided is more dramatic in reality the line is very close to the diameter Very well explained, thanks, Eric and Massimo... In addition, one must say that companies are not very accurate when they give technical specifications (e.g. the actual 175° FOV of the Canon 8-15 fisheye). Therefore the 230mm measure for the base of the 230 dome may not be very accurate (the instruction manual (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yyv7e6CsGmysBSqFuJK-H2urGpcX9Xqm/view) states that the radius is 120mm and the total diameter is 260mm (probably including socket and shades)). I also would not bet on the statement that the 140 domeport is a perfect hemisphere, maybe also this domeport deviates a little... Even when the measure of 230mm for the basis of the 230 dome is correct, Massimo's calculation demonstrates that this dome, in practice, is a perfect fisheye domeport and, more or less, a complete hemisphere- and it was developed and is sold by Nauticam as a "fisheye" domeport... Wolfgang Edited February 2 by Architeuthis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oneyellowtang 96 Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said: The A1 will be updated most likely in 2025 that is the logic of Sony product development as long as there is enough improvement to justify the existence of a new version or it may be longer Since the A1 was released there has been minor development from Sony side. They have added a more comprehensive subject recognition. When the A1 was released in early 2021 the only company who had subject recognition was Panasonic and to a lesser extent Olympus The A7RV has the same processor of the A1 so technically it is possible to retrofit the deep learning algorithm inside it The other benefit of the A7RV is a better LCD again this is a minor upgrade overall Other features like focus bracketing can be obtained with an external app again could be programmed through firmware if Sony wanted And finally HR shots with motion compensation again something that can be programmed As of today the A1 is the fastest reading camera on the market as the Nikon Z9 has lower resolution. Maybe Sony will make it even quicker but I presume features like pro-capture are more interesting to the target audience than more pixels I never said the A1 is an eternal camera that will never be updated but I totally disagree that you design a top of the range camera with limitations in mind. Sony is a large corporate and product development is no doubt already complicated by the environment the limitations will come naturally don't need to be planted if you want to be market leader As of today the A1 still detains the highest performing autofocus on the entire full frame range including mirrorless and DSLR when tested with fast moving subjects and I can confirm the camera almost never misses and if it does it was user error It is a different camera to the A7RV which is really a photo camera for landscape, architecture, portait and macro anything that needs that extreme resolution but not really geared for speed or video When it comes to autofocus difficulties with macro lenses in mirrorless camera focus is performed on sensor and it is driven by readout speed and computation speed. The limitations of the A7RV come from readout speed so compared to the A1 it will always lack no matter the subject recognition or others because the starting point is worse This is different from DSLR where readout speed only influenced when the camera is ready to take the next shot and it is a significant difference many people struggle to understand When it comes to sony autofocus it also does not focus with the lens wide open by default the lens is actually as you have it set unless you select aperture drive and then it will focus wide open. I am still struggling to see if the aperture drive brings any benefit at all As I said, the A1 will be upgraded in the next 24-30 months (i.e. so by 2025, so yes, you are agreeing with me). However what you seem to be overlooking is the upcoming Paris Olympics in 2024. Both Canon and Nikon will release new pro bodies by early 2024 (if not late 2023) to be made available for the olympics. It will be interesting to see what Sony does in this regard (A9 vs. A1 going forward) If you are interested in investigating potential areas of improvement on the A1, you can also search through their patent submissions. Potential AI capabilities feature prominently in several of them. As for what you believe happens in the product design process - you are welcome to whatever opinion you like, that doesn't change the reality of how electronics are designed and built. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambee01 22 Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said: I have provided the exact calculation. The cut is almost an hemisphere is will support up to 175 degrees The image that you provided is more dramatic in reality the line is very close to the diameter Guys, You were really intriguing me, hence went to my stuff and made some measurement. Here they are @Interceptor121, i think that my previous image was not so drmatic... :-))). When i count 1cm of glass thickness, you see that the hemisphere is cut 3cm from a radius of 12cm, hence 25% ! This is huge, when on the contrary, the 140DP is not cut and is a true hemisphere. Experienced based, image quality, comparing apple to apple, is better with my Sigma 15mm FE when using the 140 and not the 230. I will go in a pool this Weekend, and take some shot, with different apertures, from f/2.8 to f/22 using both domes. Let' see. can wait to be Saturday, 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 26 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said: As I said, the A1 will be upgraded in the next 24-30 months (i.e. so by 2025, so yes, you are agreeing with me). However what you seem to be overlooking is the upcoming Paris Olympics in 2024. Both Canon and Nikon will release new pro bodies by early 2024 (if not late 2023) to be made available for the olympics. It will be interesting to see what Sony does in this regard (A9 vs. A1 going forward) If you are interested in investigating potential areas of improvement on the A1, you can also search through their patent submissions. Potential AI capabilities feature prominently in several of them. As for what you believe happens in the product design process - you are welcome to whatever opinion you like, that doesn't change the reality of how electronics are designed and built. I think the A1 on this thread is off topic and for that reason I would like to end it here we don't need to agree on anything those are just opinion and guesses on things we do not know Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 2 18 minutes ago, lambee01 said: Guys, You were really intriguing me, hence went to my stuff and made some measurement. Here they are @Interceptor121, i think that my previous image was not so drmatic... :-))). When i count 1cm of glass thickness, you see that the hemisphere is cut 3cm from a radius of 12cm, hence 25% ! This is huge, when on the contrary, the 140DP is not cut and is a true hemisphere. Experienced based, image quality, comparing apple to apple, is better with my Sigma 15mm FE when using the 140 and not the 230. I will go in a pool this Weekend, and take some shot, with different apertures, from f/2.8 to f/22 using both domes. Let' see. can wait to be Saturday, The numbers are incorrect the diameter is 230, Also the thickness of the glass is not 1cm it will be more like 6-7mm The thickness of the dome plays a role in the determination of the virtual image but for the purpose of the discussion we should ignore it I have the 140mm dome and it is a full hemisphere and this is why there is a version with removable shades so what you say is correct Now generally larger dome have a further away virtual image and this means that if a lens struggles to focus close this will help However the canon 8-15mm can focus at 23mm from the lens so it does not have an issue of being able to focus The larger dome will allow you to use wider apertures to obtain the same depth of field however it is unclear how many aperture stops correspond to increased radius in centimeters Either way this is a generic point and off topic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimG 62 Posted February 2 .... and meanwhile, back on the A7RV..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambee01 22 Posted February 2 4 minutes ago, TimG said: .... and meanwhile, back on the A7RV..... Meanwhile, back on this topic, and further to previous contributions, i do not see any reason for me (and i insist, for me) to upgrade to A7 rV from my current A7rIV. Sensor is the same AF is more than satisfying with the a7rIV, and not sure if AI improvement as claimed by Sony, would be usefull UW A7rIV viewfinder with the x0.8 45° Nauticam viewfinder is AWESOME I am doing still photo only and no video So, have no plan to upgrade. However as mentioned before, for a new comer, someone who wants to switch from Nikon / canon DSLR, this would be awesome 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Architeuthis 156 Posted February 3 (edited) On 2/1/2023 at 7:37 PM, oneyellowtang said: The Sony 90mm on an A7RIV shooting blackwater is (almost) unusable considering the number of images captured by either a D850 or D500 with a 60mm. It's not that it can't get shots, it's that the effort involved in easily 10x vs. the DSLR shooting the same subjects in the same conditions. I'm super glad to read @Alex_Mustard's review of the A7RV - we're taking it to Ambon in the spring, looking forward to trying it out. He's correct in identifying that the A7RV is priced at a point that allows serious photographers to shoot with it, while taking advantage of the features initially available in the A1. I have a question: When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm macro for blackwater)? Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens? Wolfgang Edited February 3 by Architeuthis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crowie 5 Posted February 3 52 minutes ago, Architeuthis said: I have a question: When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm macro for blackwater)? Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens? Wolfgang I have the Sony A7RV and have just been advised to consider the Sony 30mm f3.5 macro which is an APSC lens for blackwater. This would be around 50mm. I’d be very keen to hear people’s thoughts. Thanks, Paul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barmaglot 251 Posted February 3 1 minute ago, Crowie said: I have the Sony A7RV and have just been advised to consider the Sony 30mm f3.5 macro which is an APSC lens for blackwater. This would be around 50mm. I’d be very keen to hear people’s thoughts. Thanks, Paul That is not how it works. The 30mm f/3.5 is an APS-C lens, and on an APS-C camera (NEX, A5xxx, A6xxx), it will give you an angle of view similar to that of a 45mm lens on a full-frame camera. On your A7RV, it will simply vignette, unless you use crop mode and lose resolution that way. For the reference, I tried the 30mm on my A6300 for blackwater and was not impressed by it; the working distance to get any kind of magnification is just too short. My go-to lens for blackwater is currently a Canon 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, but autofocus is frustrating - it tends to hunt back and forth and fails to lock; i.e. I can see the subject come into focus on the screen, but the focus drive merrily goes past that point going to the other end of focus range and the subject fades out. Lots of light (1000lm focus light with a concentrating lens on it, plus the modeling lights on my two strobes, plus sometimes my spotting torch pointing at the subject) tends to help, but is not a guarantee. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crowie 5 Posted February 3 2 minutes ago, Barmaglot said: That is not how it works. The 30mm f/3.5 is an APS-C lens, and on an APS-C camera (NEX, A5xxx, A6xxx), it will give you an angle of view similar to that of a 45mm lens on a full-frame camera. On your A7RV, it will simply vignette, unless you use crop mode and lose resolution that way. For the reference, I tried the 30mm on my A6300 for blackwater and was not impressed by it; the working distance to get any kind of magnification is just too short. My go-to lens for blackwater is currently a Canon 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, but autofocus is frustrating - it tends to hunt back and forth and fails to lock; i.e. I can see the subject come into focus on the screen, but the focus drive merrily goes past that point going to the other end of focus range and the subject fades out. Lots of light (1000lm focus light with a concentrating lens on it, plus the modeling lights on my two strobes, plus sometimes my spotting torch pointing at the subject) tends to help, but is not a guarantee. Thanks, but yes I should have said I would be shooting in the APS-C crop mode which would avoid the vignetting. With 60MP on hand, I wouldn’t have thought resolution would be a problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex_Mustard 0 Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Architeuthis said: I have a question: When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm macro for blackwater)? Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens? Wolfgang I have generally ignored it existence because Sony themselves call it an Entry Level lens. I don’t know exactly what that means, but it does not fill me with confidence. Other than confidence that they have left room for a 50 or 60mm G Macro! I have also just submitted my written review of the A7RV to Adam - which will be on Wetpixel once he has time to bash it into shape. Alex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Architeuthis said: I have a question: When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm macro for blackwater)? Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens? Wolfgang The 50mm apparently also focuses slow but I have no clear confirmation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Architeuthis 156 Posted February 3 22 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said: I have generally ignored it existence because Sony themselves call it an Entry Level lens. I don’t know exactly what that means, but it does not fill me with confidence. Other than confidence that they have left room for a 50 or 60mm G Macro! I have also just submitted my written review of the A7RV to Adam - which will be on Wetpixel once he has time to bash it into shape. Alex This sounds plausible... I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv) Sony 50 macro (38/50) https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326 https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326 Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850): Nikkor 105 macro (36/23) Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21) https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177 https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177 Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations? Wolfgang 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Interceptor121 773 Posted February 3 15 minutes ago, Architeuthis said: This sounds plausible... I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv) Sony 50 macro (38/50) https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326 https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326 Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850): Nikkor 105 macro (36/23) Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21) https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177 https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177 Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations? Wolfgang If you look at perceived megapixels of the 90mm is 61.... The 50mm is sharp no issues there 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
