Sony A7R V

[lambee01 22]

1 hour ago, Architeuthis said:

This sounds plausible...

 

I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows

Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv)

Sony 50 macro (38/50)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

 

Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850):

Nikkor 105 macro (36/23)

Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

 

Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations?

 

Wolfgang

 

 

Of course, Sony Marketing (screenshot from their website), but nothing about entry-level. Even the opposite.
Yes, this is correct, the 50mm Macro is not a fast runner in AF (BTW, do you know any fast runner Macro lens, Sony, Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc....? Macro lenses are NOT constructed as other prime lenses. ) 
HOWEVER, sharpness and contrast is 1st class.

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Also from Sony website.

A major use of a wider angle macro lens, like a 50mm, is blackwater, where poor AF is not really what you want.

But it is also fair to say that we all have different tastes in these things. And some will love a lens and others will not.

Alex

 

[lambee01 22]

19 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Also from Sony website.

A major use of a wider angle macro lens, like a 50mm, is blackwater, where poor AF is not really what you want.

But it is also fair to say that we all have different tastes in these things. And some will love a lens and others will not.

Alex

 

Well said. There is a proverb in french (i am bilingual French-German) saying "Tous les gouts sont dans la nature", that you guys have in English as "it takes all sorts to make a world - tastes differ". I like it.

I am not into Blackwater photography, hence slow AF not an issue for me. And as mentioned before, i am catching myself very often with MF for macro (using Focus peaking) , essentially when using the SMC-1.

And back to the main topic, if AI algorithm for AF is one of the major improvement on the rV vs the rIV (that i own) , it is not something that will trigger an upgrade by me. And if for ever reason i need super fast AF, then i would bring my A1, with less MPix, but still 50.

The EVF also might be improved, but honestly, with my eyes of a 57 yo diver, with 3'500 dives, using the Nauticam x0.8 45° i do not see any difference UNDERWATER between the A1 and the A7rIV. I have capital letter in Underwater, because, on land, yes, there is a difference, but that do not justify for me (and my budget) to upgrade.

But do not take me wrong, the A7rV is fantastic machine based on what i have read, knowing perfectly well my A7rIV.

Edited February 3 by lambee01

[Phil Rudin 458]

So I own the Sony FE 50mm F/2.8 macro and I use it sparingly. First it is very sharp for a lens priced at $100.00 less in the US than the Z 50mm F/2.8 macro. These are the only two 50mm macros that go to 1:1 for mirrorless. All of the Canon macros except the RF 100 are 1:2 lenses. The Sony and Nikon Z are both designed to expand rather than having internal focusing so I would expect them to both be slower than the like 90 and 105mm lenses. 

Like the Sony 90mm macro the 50mm is faster on the newer A7 IV, A7R V and A1 than on older versions. It is noisy when focusing and for me at 1:1 it just focuses to close. I find it most useful from about 1:2 and on, more suited to fish portraits than life-size 1:1 macro. 

Regarding blackwater, I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with the new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used.

I have attached two photos from the 50mm macro the upside of this lens is greater DOF over the 90mm at any given F/number.

 

[lambee01 22]

18 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

So I own the Sony FE 50mm F/2.8 macro and I use it sparingly. First it is very sharp for a lens priced at $100.00 less in the US than the Z 50mm F/2.8 macro. These are the only two 50mm macros that go to 1:1 for mirrorless. All of the Canon macros except the RF 100 are 1:2 lenses. The Sony and Nikon Z are both designed to expand rather than having internal focusing so I would expect them to both be slower than the like 90 and 105mm lenses. 

Like the Sony 90mm macro the 50mm is faster on the newer A7 IV, A7R V and A1 than on older versions. It is noisy when focusing and for me at 1:1 it just focuses to close. I find it most useful from about 1:2 and on, more suited to fish portraits than life-size 1:1 macro. 

Regarding blackwater, I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with the new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used.

I have attached two photos from the 50mm macro the upside of this lens is greater DOF over the 90mm at any given F/number.

 

Phil, thnaks for this very valuable insight. Experience is appreciated.

My 2 cents contribution : if you look at 1:2 macro , and not 1:1 to 1:2 range, you may then want to consider the Tamron series 20mm. 24mm and 35mm
I am personally using the Tamron SP 20mm F/2.8 Di III OSD M1:2 Sony mount (at the moment around 250$US, super cheap) with a N100 100mm Dome port made for me by José at SAGA Dive (we have calculated the length of the port for best results).
It offers SUPER fast AF, 1:2 Macro at 12 cm (the 35 mm version at 16cm) and a FOV of 95°
Here an example (the crayfish) specifically chosen to illustrate low-light conditions (as we have here in the Lake of Zurich in Switzerland, very cold water, dry-suit mandatory), here with Backscatter MF-1 strobe/snoot

The second is to illustrate Macro (1:2) with wide angle perspective, way much cheaper as with the EMWL from Nauticam.

Edited February 3 by lambee01

[Alex_Mustard 0]

Coincidentally a friend (A1 Marelux ambassador, which kind of erodes his anonymity) sent this about the 50mm

[Phil Rudin 458]

I felt the same way about the Sony A7R III when I first tried BW with the 90mm macro, challenging but doable. 

Also I have tried two of the Tamron lenses and was not impressed but I was using them in a 180mm dome. 

I have the New Sony FE 20-70mm F/4 coming next month. This lens focuses from 30cm to 25cm at the 70mm end which is about 1:2.5. Not a macro lens but to me more versatile for a verity of fish sizes. It should mate well with a 180mm port.  

[lambee01 22]

18 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

I felt the same way about the Sony A7R III when I first tried BW with the 90mm macro, challenging but doable. 

Also I have tried two of the Tamron lenses and was not impressed but I was using them in a 180mm dome. 

I have the New Sony FE 20-70mm F/4 coming next month. This lens focuses from 30cm to 25cm at the 70mm end which is about 1:2.5. Not a macro lens but to me more versatile for a verity of fish sizes. It should mate well with a 180mm port.  

Re the Tamron lenses, (i have and use the 20mm), i use it only when i want to do Macro with Wide angle. For pure wide angle, the 20mm F1.8G performs way much better, so does the 16-35 or the 12-24.

But for Macro 1:2 with 95° field of view it is a different story... as long as your dome permits to get close to the subjects, what the 180 dome (and i believe, a N120, with the N100-N120 adaptor?) does not allow.

Again, we spent some time with Jose at SagaDive to calculate the exact port base length based on specs from the lens. Jose has made for me a N100 100mm Domeport which ensures perfect sharpness with still being able to reach the minimal focusing distance of the lens (12cm) to allow 1:2 Macro. And still being able to light the scene (usually 2x Z-330 and/or MF-1 if snoot)

The same dome port could be used with the Tamron 24 and the Tamron 35mm because the 3 lenses have exact same dimension and nodal point. The 35 would give you more minimal focusing distance (you gain 4 cm) but at the price of less Angle of View 

Edited February 3 by lambee01

[Phil Rudin 458]

If it works for you that is great and it also give you the advantage of having a unique focal range. The FE 20mm F/1.8 is great the original  16-35 F/4 is a bit dated while the F/4 PZ is much better and My goto wide lens with a dome is the 12-24mm F/2.8 with 230mm dome. 

If I were just starting I would be using the 28-60 with WACP-C or WACP-1 which cover a wider zoom range for W/A and the Matty Smith 305mm dome with the 12-24mm for splits.

[Phil Rudin 458]

Fun fact for those who own the Nauticam NA-A1 housing for Sony A1 if you remove the small stop on the camera tray (pictured) the A7R V fits perfectly into the housing and the back closes without the chance of damage to the new thicker LCD screen. All of the controls I use for the A1 seem to work on the A7R V as well. Resolves my dilemma about needing a second A1 as a backup.

 

[Alex_Mustard 0]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:33 PM, Phil Rudin said:

Fun fact for those who own the Nauticam NA-A1 housing for Sony A1 if you remove the small stop on the camera tray (pictured) the A7R V fits perfectly into the housing and the back closes without the chance of damage to the new thicker LCD screen. All of the controls I use for the A1 seem to work on the A7R V as well. Resolves my dilemma about needing a second A1 as a backup.

I guess this would also mean that you can easily fit the A1 in the A7RV housing - which, when I checked was a bit cheaper than the A1 housing. Could you comment on what controls are compromised, if any?

[Interceptor121 768]

I guess this would also mean that you can easily fit the A1 in the A7RV housing - which, when I checked was a bit cheaper than the A1 housing. Could you comment on what controls are compromised, if any?

I think the A1 has a dial more so the reverse is not possible with full functionality
Well my housing can take 3 cameras now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alex_Mustard 0]

17 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think the A1 has a dial more so the reverse is not possible with full functionality
 

The extra control would also explain the price difference. 

[Interceptor121 768]

The extra control would also explain the price difference. 

On the left side drive mode and focus mode
Haven’t looked at the possibility of setting custom buttons
The Nauticam A1 is really well built


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Phil Rudin 458]

7 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I guess this would also mean that you can easily fit the A1 in the A7RV housing - which, when I checked was a bit cheaper than the A1 housing. Could you comment on what controls are compromised, if any?

So as already pointed out some of the extra cost is the very iffy control for the AF setting bottom and the frame rate control top. None of the A1 housings I have tested do this well and I make those changes with others controls. Also the Mode dial on the A1 while the same 21mm as A7R V has the video and S&Q all on the same dial while on the V they have the still, video and S&Q on the separate dial under the mode dial. As a result they don't quite lineup correctly but also things that can be set by other controls. Also the top control dial for moving the focus point manually does not always work. I can recenter the box with the KO button but getting it to move where you want it is iffy at best. Again this is another control I hardly ever use because the tracking is so much better. Everything else lines up well and as a backup to the A1 I would not miss the the shortcomings at all. Since the A7R V has the larger more complex LCD the housing should have a bit more room so the A1 LCD should not be a problem fitting in NA-A7RV housing on the supplied tray.

Just as a footnote I think the A7 IV will most likely fit the A7R V housing perhaps better than the A1 and It would be the more likely backup camera to a V.  

Edited February 7 by Phil Rudin

[Interceptor121 768]

Wolfgang, what i tried to say when saying that the 230 is not half sphere, yes it is an half spehere, but NOT cut by a plane passing through the center of the sphere like it is with the DP 140.
Tried to picture what i meant with this 

My apologies I must have been drinking too much wine
My formula was incorrect
Arcsin(115/120)=73.40
73.40x2=146.8
The 230 dome is not a fisheye dome but a wide angle port
When used with a fisheye will have additional barrel distortion so the field of view will be reduced to those 146.8 calculated
Looking at the specs of the 140mm fisheye dome the radius is 69mm I am not at home but I would like to do some measurements to check it is actually a full hemisphere
So you were correct although is not as dramatic as your drawing the field of view is less than the 172 degrees it should be


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Susa 2]

Hi, I‘m just in front of the decision buying a Canon R5 (with RF 100 Macro in an Isotta housing) or Sony A7R v (with Canon RF 100 macro or 90 mm Sony macro in Nauticam). Since I read the article from Alex about the Sony I‘m really insecure if the Sony would be better (I come from Olympus and want to change to fullframe and I‘m interested more and more in supermacro , also on land) .Please excuse my English). Anyone thoughts to that? Both systems would be new for me. Thanks!

[TimG 62]

7 minutes ago, Susa said:

I come from Olympus and want to change to fullframe

Susa

Can I ask why you think you need to go to full frame? What do you think full frame will give you? 

[Susa 2]

2 minutes ago, TimG said:

Susa

Can I ask why you think you need to go to full frame? What do you think full frame will give you? 

More possibilities to crop, the 1,4 factor of the canon macro, better autofocus, and many other reasons, I used my  Olympus cameras about 10 years (about 2000 dives) and I want to improve , I also do macro with insects on land, and I already tried out the Canon R5 on land , it was a huge upgrade. This decision to go for fullframe is already made. 

[TimG 62]

59 minutes ago, Susa said:

This decision to go for fullframe is already made. 

Thanks - and fair enough. I wasn't going to question it, I just wondered what your thinking was behind it. Topside with insects and cropability I totally get. 

Good luck with the choice. Not easy!

[chipdiver 4]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:36 PM, Susa said:

Hi, I‘m just in front of the decision buying a Canon R5 (with RF 100 Macro in an Isotta housing) or Sony A7R v (with Canon RF 100 macro or 90 mm Sony macro in Nauticam). Since I read the article from Alex about the Sony I‘m really insecure if the Sony would be better (I come from Olympus and want to change to fullframe and I‘m interested more and more in supermacro , also on land) .Please excuse my English). Anyone thoughts to that? Both systems would be new for me. Thanks!

Hi Susa - I normally use Canon and have had a Canon R5 for some time for land / portrait photography.  With that said, when I upgraded my underwater system I went with the Sony a7RIV, and now the a1.  The reason is the Nauticam underwater optics.  They take a normally mediocre lens such as the Sony 28-60 and turn it into an extremely sharp, wide angle view with zoom.  It is a great choice for close focus wide angle, fish portraits, or anything in between.  They are especially impressive in the corners when compared to a significantly larger dome.  I currently have the Nauticam WWL-1B and it is terrific!  The new WACP-C is slightly better at about the same size.  
 

When I looked to put my Canon R5 in a housing, I found the housing larger than the Sony option and there is no real support for the smaller underwater optics such as the WWL or WACP-C.  The Sony 90 macro is also extremely sharp, even if the focus speed is a little slower.  While I prefer the Canon colors, I have been very happy with the newer Sony bodies underwater.  You may want to take a look.  

[ChrisRoss 150]

On 3/8/2023 at 7:53 AM, Susa said:

More possibilities to crop, the 1,4 factor of the canon macro, better autofocus, and many other reasons, I used my  Olympus cameras about 10 years (about 2000 dives) and I want to improve , I also do macro with insects on land, and I already tried out the Canon R5 on land , it was a huge upgrade. This decision to go for fullframe is already made. 

I would suggest you start with your preferred subjects and work back wards to the camera.  Pick what macro lens you would like, which wide angle and see how it mates to various cameras that are available and how much it will cost for the lens and the necessary ports.

Be aware there are reports that the Canon 100mm RF macro lens exhibits focus shift - which means when AF with the lens wide open the point in focus shifts backwards away from the camera when it stops down to shooting aperture.  Numerous posts  about this including:

https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EF-RF-Lenses/Focus-shift-with-RF-100mm-f2-8L-macro-lens/td-p/360330

which links to the digital picture review which first reported this extensively.  On land you can work around it relatively easily but UW it would be a right pain.  The annoying thing is that it would be relatively easy to fix the problem in firmware.

[Susa 2]

7 hours ago, chipdiver said:

Hi Susa - I normally use Canon and have had a Canon R5 for some time for land / portrait photography.  With that said, when I upgraded my underwater system I went with the Sony a7RIV, and now the a1.  The reason is the Nauticam underwater optics.  They take a normally mediocre lens such as the Sony 28-60 and turn it into an extremely sharp, wide angle view with zoom.  It is a great choice for close focus wide angle, fish portraits, or anything in between.  They are especially impressive in the corners when compared to a significantly larger dome.  I currently have the Nauticam WWL-1B and it is terrific!  The new WACP-C is slightly better at about the same size.  
 

When I looked to put my Canon R5 in a housing, I found the housing larger than the Sony option and there is no real support for the smaller underwater optics such as the WWL or WACP-C.  The Sony 90 macro is also extremely sharp, even if the focus speed is a little slower.  While I prefer the Canon colors, I have been very happy with the newer Sony bodies underwater.  You may want to take a look.  

Thanks a lot for your reply! I already thought about the new Sony a7RV, and a Nauticam housing. This combi would also fit with the 100 rf macro from Canon (perhaps in a later step). But with this 61 MP I'm so unsure because of the handling with this huge amount of space and power needed, I work with a 2017 Imac 27 , and with a M1 pro IPad. And on money reasons Imac could not be changed in the near future. The other reason (I never owned a Sony nor a Canon) I read that the Canon is a very robust outdoor camera and the Sony not. A friend says absolut Sony and the other absolut Canon :-). And at the end, after reading lots of reviews, the article from Alex Mustard about the Sony A7rv I'm really somewhat more unsure! The only things I know, 100 % I really would like to have something for a lot of years being happy with, I love super small things underwater and on landand  I will take a lot of money in my hand, but that would not be possible a second time in the next years.  

[Susa 2]

6 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

I would suggest you start with your preferred subjects and work back wards to the camera.  Pick what macro lens you would like, which wide angle and see how it mates to various cameras that are available and how much it will cost for the lens and the necessary ports.

Be aware there are reports that the Canon 100mm RF macro lens exhibits focus shift - which means when AF with the lens wide open the point in focus shifts backwards away from the camera when it stops down to shooting aperture.  Numerous posts  about this including:

https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EF-RF-Lenses/Focus-shift-with-RF-100mm-f2-8L-macro-lens/td-p/360330

which links to the digital picture review which first reported this extensively.  On land you can work around it relatively easily but UW it would be a right pain.  The annoying thing is that it would be relatively easy to fix the problem in firmware.

Also many thanks for your reply, I just read the article, puh. I think this issue would affect exactly what is my favorite, shooting super macro. The biggest argument  (for my needs) for the 100 rf Canon macro was the 1,4 magnification.  If I would choose now an other lens, like Sony macro 90 mm, I would also choose the Sony A7rv.

So now I will wait, a Firmware update from Canon is announced and perhaps have a look to Nikon also (upcoming Z8?). Hard to make a decision, otherwise I will buy the Sony A7rV. 

[Architeuthis 156]

1 hour ago, Susa said:

Thanks a lot for your reply! I already thought about the new Sony a7RV, and a Nauticam housing. This combi would also fit with the 100 rf macro from Canon (perhaps in a later step). But with this 61 MP I'm so unsure because of the handling with this huge amount of space and power needed, I work with a 2017 Imac 27 , and with a M1 pro IPad. And on money reasons Imac could not be changed in the near future. The other reason (I never owned a Sony nor a Canon) I read that the Canon is a very robust outdoor camera and the Sony not. A friend says absolut Sony and the other absolut Canon :-). And at the end, after reading lots of reviews, the article from Alex Mustard about the Sony A7rv I'm really somewhat more unsure! The only things I know, 100 % I really would like to have something for a lot of years being happy with, I love super small things underwater and on landand  I will take a lot of money in my hand, but that would not be possible a second time in the next years.  

Hi Susa,

 

The Canon RF 100mm will not work with the Sony camera, as there is no adapter available and it is, technically, almost impossible to make one. You can adapt Canon EF lenses to work with Sony, but nor RF lenses. When you go with Sony you will never be able to use RF lenses...

 

Wolfgang