Using an external monitor instead of a viewfinder

[Interceptor121 713]

I am looking at viewfinders for my A1

Straight viewfinder: £1,483

Angled viewfinder:  £1,367

Total                          £2,850

Atomos Shinobi £299

Shinoby housing £1,709

HDMI cable         £71

Two NPF-70 Batteries £198

Total £2,277

Why exactly I would buy two viewfinders?

I understand the EVF on land I use it regularly I can stick my eye on the cup and still use my other eye to look at the scene however with a mask the seal won't be perfect and I need two

I also shoot video and I already have the Shinobi and a Ninja for that matter but can someone elaborate on the benefit of the viewfinder other than bulk?

[Phil Rudin 446]

The difference is that you have paid for a camera that has the best EVF made with over 9 million dot's.

It is absolute superb especially when used with Nauticam's new 40 degree 0.8:1 straight or 45 degree viewfinders.

The Atomos is great for video but when you want to check for critical focus you can not beat this EVF/viewfinder combination.

 

 

[Interceptor121 713]

2 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

The difference is that you have paid for a camera that has the best EVF made with over 9 million dot's.

It is absolute superb especially when used with Nauticam's new 40 degree 0.8:1 straight or 45 degree viewfinders.

The Atomos is great for video but when you want to check for critical focus you can not beat this EVF/viewfinder combination.

 

 

The EVF is 2048x1536 pixels and is 0.64" my Shinoby is 5" and in 3:2 mode is 1620x1080 although the resolution is 80% more in the EVF the monitor is bigger and has buttons for x1 x2 x4 on screen while you shoot

I can tell you that is much more practical to look at a 5" screen than looking into an EVF. Obviously when am doing long lens topside I use the EVF myself but to judge critical focus the monitor is way better 

In addition the atomos has a lot of exposure and focus helps simply not available on the EVF

Have you actually tried a monitor to shoot photos? I use both topside and the only issue is that monitors are not weather proof but once enclosed in a rugged housing the issue goes away

[ChrisRoss 150]

There's no black and white answer, use what works for you.  For land based work I use the EVF a lot as it's diopter corrected, I'd be taking reading glasses on and off constantly.  I also use a monitor in the field for focus stacking work as it is easier to use and I can readily set the start point for the focus stack on the external monitor.  The downside is that I need to unplug the monitor to start the stack as the auto focus stacking is disabled as soon as you plug in the monitor - which is really unhelpful,  It'd be nice to use the monitor to time when the subject is sitting still and not have to constantly plug and unplug the cable.  Using the  OM-1 for this. 

UW the diopter correction of my 45° VF is also very useful, sure i could use add-on lenses to my mask, but currently I can see everything I need but fine detail so much easier to use something that is diopter corrected.

[Interceptor121 713]

5 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

There's no black and white answer, use what works for you.  For land based work I use the EVF a lot as it's diopter corrected, I'd be taking reading glasses on and off constantly.  I also use a monitor in the field for focus stacking work as it is easier to use and I can readily set the start point for the focus stack on the external monitor.  The downside is that I need to unplug the monitor to start the stack as the auto focus stacking is disabled as soon as you plug in the monitor - which is really unhelpful,  It'd be nice to use the monitor to time when the subject is sitting still and not have to constantly plug and unplug the cable.  Using the  OM-1 for this. 

UW the diopter correction of my 45° VF is also very useful, sure i could use add-on lenses to my mask, but currently I can see everything I need but fine detail so much easier to use something that is diopter corrected.

I would recommend trying multifocal contact lenses to be honest is a better solution

For me the argument of the EVF works well underwater is tainted by the fact that you don't have a seal around it you always have light leaks in addition I find the fact you need two viewfinder awkward

The resolution point is not really a good one as the Shinobi is like a 5.2 million dots evf which is higher than most cameras on the market by any standard. Sure the A1 EVF is amazing but the best feature is the lack of blackout for me after 3.7m dots there is little visible improvent. Which brings me to the other point of HDMI lag I need to measure the A1 but that would be a more serious issue than the resolution which is plentyful

So I guess nobody has tried is the answer so far

[hyp 104]

I have long thought the same thing as @Interceptor121, that a larger screen would be much more helpful than a viewfinder for video AND stills. The Bulk is a clear drawback though and cost of both viewfinders and monitors is not exactly small, so personally I've stuck with the regular old screen on the camera. 

[ChrisRoss 150]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I would recommend trying multifocal contact lenses to be honest is a better solution

 

Thanks but no, my distant vision is fine, it's only fine detail up close that needs assistance.  The EVF is the prefect solution for me UW.  You may have different needs to me and that's fine too.

[Interceptor121 713]

23 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

Thanks but no, my distant vision is fine, it's only fine detail up close that needs assistance.  The EVF is the prefect solution for me UW.  You may have different needs to me and that's fine too.

There are nearsight contact lenses

Eventually you get to the point that you have 1.75 diopters and you won't be able to see other things clearly it is just a matter of time

I started having issues at 50 some people have it at 40 it soon catches up with everybody

[Barmaglot 229]

Have you considered a third option - LCD magnifier hood? I recently put one on my A6300 and was surprised by how well it works. Yeah, the resolution of the LCD screen is not as good as the EVF, but it comes at a small fraction of the cost of either a magnifying viewfinder or a monitor housing.

[Interceptor121 713]

1 minute ago, Barmaglot said:

Have you considered a third option - LCD magnifier hood? I recently put one on my A6300 and was surprised by how well it works. Yeah, the resolution of the LCD screen is not as good as the EVF, but it comes at a small fraction of the cost of either a magnifying viewfinder or a monitor housing.

I have considered an even easier option which is a magnifier lens on the LCD I have seen it working in water

It does not resolve the angle issue though which is what a monitor does better than EVFs

[ChrisRoss 150]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

There are nearsight contact lenses

Eventually you get to the point that you have 1.75 diopters and you won't be able to see other things clearly it is just a matter of time

I started having issues at 50 some people have it at 40 it soon catches up with everybody

I know, but I'm 61 and only been using reading glasses for 3 years or so and I plan to enjoy it while it lasts.

[Barmaglot 229]

54 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

It does not resolve the angle issue though which is what a monitor does better than EVFs

What about this one? https://www.aoi-uw.com/products/wet-lenses/aoi-umg-05.html

[Interceptor121 713]

I know, but I'm 61 and only been using reading glasses for 3 years or so and I plan to enjoy it while it lasts.

You are lucky!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Interceptor121 713]

What about this one? https://www.aoi-uw.com/products/wet-lenses/aoi-umg-05.html

Would you shoot with that angle all times? My preference is to look at the scene on the same line of the lens
Having an angle is only when am in the sand/bottom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barmaglot 229]

Just now, Interceptor121 said:

Would you shoot with that angle all times? My preference is to look at the scene on the same line of the lens
Having an angle is only when am in the sand/bottom

Probably not at all times, but I can see it being quite useful for muck/macro dives. I'm currently using a Nauticam hood that I got for basically peanuts ($65 second-hand), and I'm honestly surprised at how good it is. I don't actually have to hold my mask to the hood - I can, if I want to completely occlude the ambient light, but it's got a very large effective eyebox, so I can hold the camera in a similar fashion to what I'd use without the hood, and still get the magnified screen view.

[Interceptor121 713]

2 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

Probably not at all times, but I can see it being quite useful for muck/macro dives. I'm currently using a Nauticam hood that I got for basically peanuts ($65 second-hand), and I'm honestly surprised at how good it is. I don't actually have to hold my mask to the hood - I can, if I want to completely occlude the ambient light, but it's got a very large effective eyebox, so I can hold the camera in a similar fashion to what I'd use without the hood, and still get the magnified screen view.

For sure I see a benefit if you are happy with quality of the LCD as a short terms solution

However most LCD are not higher than 1024pixels wide some are 1200x800. My A1 is 800x600 this is not sufficient for critical focus evaluation but is fine for shooting purposes

What I like about the monitor is that I can change angle as I see fit during the dive I am not constrained to what I have on the camera but it is expensive and bulky

[Barmaglot 229]

1 minute ago, Interceptor121 said:

However most LCD are not higher than 1024pixels wide some are 1200x800. My A1 is 800x600 this is not sufficient for critical focus evaluation but is fine for shooting purposes

I don't have focus gears for my lenses, so I 99% rely on autofocus, with the last 1% being DMF + camera move, where I rely on focus peaking to tell me that I'm in the ballpark. If you're doing manual focus, then I can see the higher resolution of EVF/monitor being desirable.

3 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

What I like about the monitor is that I can change angle as I see fit during the dive I am not constrained to what I have on the camera but it is expensive and bulky 

There is also the extra drag to consider, especially if you dive in currents.

[Interceptor121 713]

Just now, Barmaglot said:

I don't have focus gears for my lenses, so I 99% rely on autofocus, with the last 1% being DMF + camera move, where I rely on focus peaking to tell me that I'm in the ballpark. If you're doing manual focus, then I can see the higher resolution of EVF/monitor being desirable.

There is also the extra drag to consider, especially if you dive in currents.

I am talking about viewing the shot after you take it not just shooting

I am fully on board with the drag issue however I can also tell you that where there is a will there is a way and dome port already kill you

There are ways to put the monitor in optimised position for swimming a user here showed some examples

[TimG 62]

37 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

I know, but I'm 61 and only been using reading glasses for 3 years or so and I plan to enjoy it while it lasts.

Snap!

[Architeuthis 138]

58 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Would you shoot with that angle all times? My preference is to look at the scene on the same line of the lens
Having an angle is only when am in the sand/bottom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is certainly depends a lot on the individuum, what is regarded the optimum...

 

As far as I am concerned, I have my 45° viewfinder always on the housing, regardless whether I shoot macro or WA. It took me few dives to get familiar with the 45° and point the camera roughly to the right direction. Now seeing through 45° and pointing the camera to the right angle is just normal for me. It would confuse me, when I had to change from 45° to 180° inbetween dives. I find it also impracticable to exchange the viewfinder every dive...

 

Regarding other issues:

#1.: I was using the back LCD for long. 45° viewfinder is not only much better for neck muscles, but when I was near the surface and the sun was shining, I had problems to see anything on LCD (I guess a monitor without hood may behave similar).

#2.: Regarding presbyopia: I am now over 66 and did not have any problems until 60. After 60 it started to progress rapidly and is becoming worse now every year. I have lenses, glued into my mask (multifocal, astigmatism and short sightedness). The adjustable optics of the viewfinder is very useful to correct for the annual increase of presbyopia and has saved me already money (a mask of this kind costs 600-700 Euros, but I will buy another mask of this kind, if required, without any hesitation). Last year I tried contact lenses (negtive dioptries, astigmatism plus multifocal): I could see a little better near and also far, but there was not a single region where I could see really good, comparable to the mask and the spectacles that I wear over the water - not an option for me, personally...

 

=> For me the 45° viewfinder in permanent use is the optimum, but it may be different when one produces video...

 

Wolfgang

Edited January 5 by Architeuthis

[Interceptor121 713]

44 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

It is certainly depends a lot on the individuum, what is regarded the optimum...

 

As far as I am concerned, I have my 45° viewfinder always on the housing, regardless whether I shoot macro or WA. It took me few dives to get familiar with the 45° and point the camera roughly to the right direction. Now seeing through 45° and pointing the camera to the right angle is just normal for me. It would confuse me, when I had to change from 45° to 180° inbetween dives. I find it also impracticable to exchange the viewfinder every dive...

 

Regarding other issues:

#1.: I was using the back LCD for long. 45° viewfinder is not only much better for neck muscles, but when I was near the surface and the sun was shining, I had problems to see anything on LCD (I guess a monitor without hood may behave similar).

#2.: Regarding presbyopia: I am now over 66 and did not have any problems until 60. After 60 it started to progress rapidly and is becoming worse now every year. I have lenses, glued into my mask (multifocal, astigmatism and short sightedness). The adjustable optics of the viewfinder is very useful to correct for the annual increase of presbyopia and has saved me already money (a mask of this kind costs 600-700 Euros, but I will buy another mask of this kind, if required, without any hesitation). Last year I tried contact lenses (negtive dioptries, astigmatism plus multifocal): I could see a little better near and also far, but there was not a single region where I could see really good, comparable to the mask and the spectacles that I wear over the water - not an option for me, personally...

 

=> For me the 45° viewfinder in permanent use is the optimum, but it may be different when one produces video...

 

Wolfgang

The Shinobi is 1000 nits you can see the screen in daylight without hood is not comparable to a 100 nits LCD screen

You can put the monitor any angle you like not just 45 and I found out the A1 has a viewfinder mode for the LCD where I can see all settings on the LCD and the histogram and a clean screen with the picture on the monitor

The key issue is drag in the water and then of course packing but to be frank I have come this far I pay for extra luggage no problem

You are correct that for video this is almost a must but I have survived so far with just the camera LCD for both

[Interceptor121 713]

Some findings using the shinobi for photos

1. You need to set the camera in display settings mode otherwise you dont see where the camera is focussing

2. You can have on the same screen histogram the view from the camera and focus peaking so you see real time the focus plus zebra

3. If you deactivate live view for example because is dark and you want to see the effectivness of the exposure tools on the monitor goes away as the screen is always balanced

4. You can get a nice analysis screen with waveform, histogram and vectorscope however the latter is not useful for photos

I think the combination of focus peaking, RGB histogram (not monochrome) and zebra is very useful when you use the exposure on screen. When you are in DSLR mode and you don't you have focus peaking which is useful

In terms of screen the LCD is 6 cm wide the image on the monitor is 9.6 cm wide

checking for focus etc is not an issue at all

Now my next question is how easy is to remove the viewfinder if I fit one if this is not an easy job it will be painful as I swap between video and photo so I think I need to make a choice and stick to it probably the monitor

[Interceptor121 713]

Update

Today I measured the HDMI lag on the A1

I am in shock and horror that this is higher than the Panasonic GH5/GH6 that usually takes the beating and an additional testimony to the fact that with all due respect Sony users are clueless and get fobbed off easily

Not only I have discovered that the LCD runs only at 30fps there is not faster 60fps option as in my Panasonic camera

Trivial to say this destroys the idea of using a monitor for photos as the lag is hear me now >130 ms

So it will be viewfinder not only that the EVF as 50/100/200 fps and at 200 fps is practically real time

I need to find a way to use the viewfinder in video now....