Wetpixel Live: Sony a7R V for UW Shooters?

[adamhanlon 0]

During his recent Grand Cayman workshops, @Alex_Mustard was able to borrow and extensively use a Sony a7R V mirrorless camera. The camera is now receiving favorable reviews in the "above water" photographic community, so this is a rare opportunity to get an early opinion specific to underwater use about an exciting new camera body. Joined by @adamhanlon, the duo had some technical issues with the recording; this episode has a few glitches. However, the information presented is important and is worth watching.

 

 

[Floris Bennema 25]

I was pleasantly surprised by Alex's enthusiasm for this mirrorless.
Till now I imagined that Adam and Alex would still be discussing the advantages 
of the D850 for many years to come. Now I'm not sure any more..

Edited February 1 by Floris Bennema

[adamhanlon 0]

I’ll still carry on about D850’s! 

Seriously, I think we have both always emphasized that we accept the future will be mirrorless. However (until now perhaps) I have not been convinced that there is any real incentive (outside of marketing) for UW photographers to switch from their existing SLRs to mirrorless.

I should qualify this by stating that I still have no plans to switch from my D850/D500 until there is a mature ecosystem of lenses suitable for UW use. I am very happy with the performance of my existing system, and value the range of lenses and focal lengths that are available for it. I’m still not convinced there are enough performance advantages to outweigh the disadvantages (yet). Once there are, I will be in the front of the queue!

If I was starting out now, the situation is more complicated. There is currently no clear brand leader for underwater use. While I understand that mirrorless will be future, we are still left in the position of needing to choose a brand that we can build out a complete system with. This will (should) be partly decided on lens availability, for which none of us have definitive info…it is a conundrum. 

[Interceptor121 768]

The A7RV is not a DSLR killer on land nor underwater

It is a very nice camera for a variety of use but the slowness of response is diametrically opposite to what an SLR does

I always wonder if underwater is more similar to topside landscape (which the A7RV is for) or sports action or is a category on its own

[TimG 62]

41 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

I should qualify this by stating that I still have no plans to switch from my D850/D500 until there is a mature ecosystem of lenses suitable for UW use. I am very happy with the performance of my existing system, and value the range of lenses and focal lengths that are available for it. I’m still not convinced there are enough performance advantages to outweigh the disadvantages (yet).

Same goes for me with a D500! I'm not sure either that, for the moment, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Do I really need a better camera body?

As Adam sets out, seems to me the quandry is what to do if you are setting out now. Mirrorless is the way to go - but whose? Looks like Sony at the moment in terms of camera bodies. But for lenses?

[Interceptor121 768]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

Same goes for me with a D500! I'm not sure either that, for the moment, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Do I really need a better camera body?

As Adam sets out, seems to me the quandry is what to do if you are setting out now. Mirrorless is the way to go - but whose? Looks like Sony at the moment in terms of camera bodies. But for lenses?

You will both change your gear when your camera will fail and you won't find spares it is my guess

The D850 is vintage 2017 still being made

The D500 is vintage 2016 discontinued

I think this year Nikon will discontinue more DSLR. And of course they are discontinuing lenses too.

Normally you can keep going at least another 5 years predating spares etc. So I would say 2027/2028 is your time if you are pushing it

The point is that the longer you wait harder it gets to adapt obviously if you were shooting a mirrorless topside this would be less traumatic

Meanwhile I am not entirely sure the issues about lenses will be sorted it may or not be

Just to be clear there is no need for a native fisheye the metabones adapter with the canon 8-15mm or the sigma 15mm with sigma adapter works fine on Canon and Sony. Not sure about Nikon maybe that is more problematic

For macro all mirrorless cameras have some sort of challenge this is a result of a change in direction in the use case for macro lenses topside

Edited February 2 by Interceptor121

[TimG 62]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

So I would say 2027/2028 is your time if you are pushing it

By then I think I will be grateful if I'm still capable of diving...... 

[Interceptor121 768]

17 minutes ago, TimG said:

By then I think I will be grateful if I'm still capable of diving...... 

This is indeed a consideration. If you can run it until you retire why not?

[Floris Bennema 25]

7 hours ago, adamhanlon said:

I’ll still carry on about D850’s! 

Seriously, I think we have both always emphasized that we accept the future will be mirrorless. However (until now perhaps) I have not been convinced that there is any real incentive (outside of marketing) for UW photographers to switch from their existing SLRs to mirrorless.

Adam, please don't take the cartoon to serious. I think in English there's a expression "Never miss a good laugh".

I am a MFT shooter because of my (lenses) upgrade path, and I am happy with it.  However at times a bit envious of the D850 shooters.

And .. Happy birthday!

Edited February 2 by Floris Bennema

[davehicks 99]

I am very happy D850 shooter. The only thing that has made me even the slightest bit interested in Mirrorless is the WWL-1B on the Sony A7 series cameras. The form factor and weight are fantastic and the photos from friends with this setup are very impressive and very equivalent to what I can do with the D850. It's just a lot more flexible and portable that what I would need to cover the same range. 

I am very interested in what Nikon does with a pro-sumer  Z9 body, perhaps a Z8. A lot of this Sony envy might evaporate. Even so, I might not upgrade my D850 based gear for quite a few more years. 

[Phil Rudin 459]

First of all I would like to say that Alex has done an excellent job pointing out the strengths of the Sony A7R V specifically and also the shortcomings of the Sony system as a whole. I think the key point is that Alex was able to "extensively use" this camera and that this could be the first time he has done that with a complete Sony system. 

I have used the D850 and the D500 but only for a very limited time so I have never felt comfortable trying to compare them to any mirrorless full frame camera. In fact the last full frame camera I used extensively was my Nikonos RS with five different lenses and a 2X tele converter. I remember being at DEMA a few years ago, I was sitting around a table in the press office having coffee with Adam and a few others when the subject of mirrorless v. DSLR came up. I joked to Adam that his D850 was 20th century tech while my mirrorless Sony camera was 21st century tech. I am sure Adam was not amused but the Idea for me was that while the Nikonos RS had miserable AF and many other shortcomings the lenses were superb and so was the optical viewfinder. For these reasons I shot the RS and no other camera for fifteen years.  DSLR's wide optics never really outperformed the RS image quality wise until the Nauticam wide wet lenses appeared on the scene.

Alex also named me specifically in the video review as being unbiased in my reviews for uwpmag.com because I don't work for or receive payment from any manufacture for my reviews. Alex also mentioned that I had taken a recent interest in Marelux equipment. It is true that I have done reviews in the past year in UWP for the Marelux prototype A-1 housing, the 140mm dome port and the first generation SOFT snoot. The Marelux A-1 housing review was also posted on Wetpixel. As Senior Reviewer for UWP I am always looking for new and innovative products. A new aluminum housing manufacturer only comes along every ten years or so. Doing a review of a new manufacture seems like a no brainer to me. The SOFT snoot is a first having the focus light built into the snoot rather than using the flash focus light and the 140mm dome widely used with 8-15mm has an advantage because Marelux has designed the sun shade so that bayonets and can easily be removed and reinstalled underwater when using the 8mm circular end of the lens which vignettes with any port where the shade has not been removed.

The last thing I would say about Marelux is that they have taken a page right out of the Sony play book that pissed off many Canon and Nikon users when they first arrived on the scene and now which is a constant presence on social media. 

I would also point out that I have just reviewed Nauticam's new WACP-C using the A7R V in a my Nauticam A1housing and the outstanding 40/0.8:1 viewfinder that Alex used in his review with the A7R V.

I suspect that the Nikon Z8 when it arrives will be using the same Sony 61MP FF sensor used in the A7R IV&V. The up side is that I hope to see a base ISO of 64 or less with the Nikon unlike the base ISO 100 that Sony has been using. We would all be better served with a lower base ISO rather than the need to shoot at ISO-102400. 

  

 

   

 

[Interceptor121 768]

I suspect that sony will keep an edge on megapixels
A1 50.2 -> Z9 45.7
Currently the Z7 is a bit higher than where the A7RIII was
Sony position more resolution faster readout than anybody else
If someone want to beat them better build your own sensor
Nikon has come out of losses and committed to completely shut down DSLR in 2025 so I suppose no new models all focus on Z system
Which is also good to push sony and canon further


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alex_Mustard 0]

1 hour ago, Phil Rudin said:

I suspect that the Nikon Z8 when it arrives will be using the same Sony 61MP FF sensor used in the A7R IV&V. The up side is that I hope to see a base ISO of 64 or less with the Nikon unlike the base ISO 100 that Sony has been using. We would all be better served with a lower base ISO rather than the need to shoot at ISO-102400. 

  

 

   

 

I always pay attention to Phil’s reviews! I know in the original recording (with even worse sound) I made a point of saying how important independent reviews such as yours are for the community. As it seems everyone else has an angle. We’re lucky to have you. 

The Sony 61MP sensor is great, but it is not the standout feature of the A7R V. So for me the Z8 needs much more than that sensor to be a contender. I would want the a big improvement on other Nikon Z EVFs (just buy the Sony one, Nikon), I’d want the sync speed at least up to Nikon SLR level (not a Nikon Z level) and I’d want something special with autofocus (I’ve only tried it on land, by the Z9 system seems good). I guess, in short, what I am saying is I want a A7R V with a Z mount and Z8 written on the front and then we’ll talk! 

BTW, I am pretty sure the A7R V offered a base ISO of 50, but I no longer have it to check.

[waterpixel 66]

52 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

BTW, I am pretty sure the A7R V offered a base ISO of 50, but I no longer have it to check.

It does,  all Sony A7x from A7II offer ISO 50 as base ISO (but ISO 100 remains the minimum for auto ISO)

Edited February 2 by waterpixel

[Interceptor121 768]

It does,  all Sony A7x from A7II offer ISO 50 as base ISO (but ISO 100 remains the minimum for auto ISO)

Values below 100 only eliminate the built in highlight protection so the DR is is identical 50=100


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LarryHallas 44]

57 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I would want the a big improvement on other Nikon Z EVFs (just buy the Sony one, Nikon), I’d want the sync speed at least up to Nikon SLR level (not a Nikon Z level) and I’d want something special with autofocus (I’ve only tried it on land, by the Z9 system seems good). I guess, in short, what I am saying is I want a A7R V with a Z mount and Z8 written on the front and then we’ll talk! 

I have read rumors that the Z8 is ready for production and only held up because of a parts shortage. It will be released in March 2023. The rumor(s) are also saying that the Z8 will have the same or better AF than the Z9. They are calling it the "Mirrorless D850". I can't wait to find out! https://nikonrumors.com/ 

[Phil Rudin 459]

2 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I always pay attention to Phil’s reviews! I know in the original recording (with even worse sound) I made a point of saying how important independent reviews such as yours are for the community. As it seems everyone else has an angle. We’re lucky to have you. 

Thank you for the kind words Alex.

The Sony 61MP sensor is great, but it is not the standout feature of the A7R V. So for me the Z8 needs much more than that sensor to be a contender. I would want the a big improvement on other Nikon Z EVFs (just buy the Sony one, Nikon), I’d want the sync speed at least up to Nikon SLR level (not a Nikon Z level) and I’d want something special with autofocus (I’ve only tried it on land, by the Z9 system seems good). I guess, in short, what I am saying is I want a A7R V with a Z mount and Z8 written on the front and then we’ll talk! 

I totally agree regarding the EVF, I was surprised to see that the Z9 has the 3690DOT EVF at that price point while the A1, A7s III and A7R V all have the much higher 9437DOT EVF. I would also be concerned about the trend towards 1/200th top sync speeds across the Z-line. I hope this does not signal a move towards all electronic shutter cameras going forward to reduce cost. 

The reason the Sony A1 can shoot at 1/400th in full frame and 1/500th APS-C is because they completely redesigned the entire mechanical shutter used in the A7 lineup. The A1 has a two stage shutter that can sync to 1/250th without additional assistance. Over 1/250th the shutter gets an additional bump from a spring loaded design that makes the shutter move faster. This is one of the added costa only found on the A1 along with the stacked sensor. I expect to see both of these features incorporated into the new A9 sports camera coming later this year. Regarding the larger lens opening on the new Z mount and RF mounts on Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras I read all the hype about why they should work better than the smaller DSLR mounts and the Sony mount. Currently I have seen no real world evidence that the larger mounts have improved image quality over the smaller diameter Sony mount. 

BTW, I am pretty sure the A7R V offered a base ISO of 50, but I no longer have it to check.

I think there is a misunderstanding between base ISO and lowest ISO. The Nikon Z Cameras have a base ISO of 64 which is expandable to 32 while the Sony's have a base ISO of 100 which is expandable to 50. The base ISO has the best overall image quality while expanded to 32 and 50 image quality suffers a bit.

 

Edited February 3 by Phil Rudin

[adamhanlon 0]

17 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

You will both change your gear when your camera will fail and you won't find spares it is my guess

The D850 is vintage 2017 still being made

The D500 is vintage 2016 discontinued

I think this year Nikon will discontinue more DSLR. And of course they are discontinuing lenses too.

Normally you can keep going at least another 5 years predating spares etc. So I would say 2027/2028 is your time if you are pushing it

The point is that the longer you wait harder it gets to adapt obviously if you were shooting a mirrorless topside this would be less traumatic

Spares are still plentifully available from Nikon for the D2X which is from 2004, so if one is minded to keep a D850/D500 going, this would potentially extend their life to at least 2042. Should see us out @TimG! 

There is no evidence to support that now mirrorless is here, all existing SLRs will suddenly cease to work, become suddenly irreparable, and only function as expensive paperweights!

Before I get called out as being an old time Luddite again, I would imagine that I will have switched camera type a year or two before then! 

In fact, very few people keep their cameras and lenses until they wear out. They upgrade them because of enhanced performance in newer models. Camera manufacturers discontinue cameras for commercial reasons. In fact, they want us to buy new cameras as often as possible and spend lots of money marketing new products to persuade us to do so.

As underwater photographers, we are a very niche user group, and the mainstream camera and lens manufacturers do not factor our needs into their design and production schedules. Any underwater specific performance advantages are serendipitous. 

The existing ecosystem has evolved and expanded since the inception of the full frame SLR to offer a great deal of choice. Within this range of choices is a much smaller subset of options suitable for underwater use.

Inevitably, it will take time for this subset of options to become available in any new format.

My experience thus far has not indicated that switching to mirrorless is traumatic. I agree that new features need to be learnt, but this is something that most experienced photographers can achieve relatively quickly. 

This emphasizes why, for those that have SLR camera systems that they are happy with, I still feel there is no advantage in switching to full frame mirrorless now. There is nothing (yet) that is being missed out on by keeping your powder dry for the time being.

Before I get lynched (again) I should also for the record state that I do plan to switch, but only once there is a clear advantage in (my) doing so.

[Interceptor121 768]

36 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

Spares are still plentifully available from Nikon for the D2X which is from 2004, so if one is minded to keep a D850/D500 going, this would potentially extend their life to at least 2042. Should see us out @TimG! 
 

There is no evidence to support that now mirrorless is here, all existing SLRs will suddenly cease to work, become suddenly irreparable, and only function as expensive paperweights

Before I get called out as being an old time Luddite again, I would imagine that I will have switched camera type a year or two before then! 

In fact, very few people keep their cameras and lenses until they wear out. They upgrade them because of enhanced performance in newer models. Camera manufacturers discontinue cameras for commercial reasons. In fact, they want us to buy new cameras as often as possible and spend lots of money marketing new products to persuade us to do so.

As underwater photographers, we are a very niche user group, and the mainstream camera and lens manufacturers do not factor our needs into their design and production schedules. Any underwater specific performance advantages are serendipitous. 

The existing ecosystem has evolved and expanded since the inception of the full frame SLR to offer a great deal of choice. Within this range of choices is a much smaller subset of options suitable for underwater use.

Inevitably, it will take time for this subset of options to become available in any new format.

My experience thus far has not indicated that switching to mirrorless is traumatic. I agree that new features need to be learnt, but this is something that most experienced photographers can achieve relatively quickly. 

This emphasizes why, for those that have SLR camera systems that they are happy with, I still feel there is no advantage in switching to full frame mirrorless now. There is nothing (yet) that is being missed out on by keeping your powder dry for the time being.

Before I get lynched (again) I should also for the record state that I do plan to switch, but only once there is a clear advantage in (my) doing so.

I was not being negative. I was being practical

There is nothing wrong running to the end of the line especially for those shooters that are near to retirement (not your case)

I do not see however any significant benefits of DSLR at present with the exception of the behaviour of some macro lenses which has more to do with the lenses than the format

[ChrisRoss 150]

4 hours ago, adamhanlon said:

Spares are still plentifully available from Nikon for the D2X which is from 2004, so if one is minded to keep a D850/D500 going, this would potentially extend their life to at least 2042. Should see us out @TimG! 

There is no evidence to support that now mirrorless is here, all existing SLRs will suddenly cease to work, become suddenly irreparable, and only function as expensive paperweights!

Before I get called out as being an old time Luddite again, I would imagine that I will have switched camera type a year or two before then! 

In fact, very few people keep their cameras and lenses until they wear out. They upgrade them because of enhanced performance in newer models. Camera manufacturers discontinue cameras for commercial reasons. In fact, they want us to buy new cameras as often as possible and spend lots of money marketing new products to persuade us to do so.

As underwater photographers, we are a very niche user group, and the mainstream camera and lens manufacturers do not factor our needs into their design and production schedules. Any underwater specific performance advantages are serendipitous. 

The existing ecosystem has evolved and expanded since the inception of the full frame SLR to offer a great deal of choice. Within this range of choices is a much smaller subset of options suitable for underwater use.

Inevitably, it will take time for this subset of options to become available in any new format.

My experience thus far has not indicated that switching to mirrorless is traumatic. I agree that new features need to be learnt, but this is something that most experienced photographers can achieve relatively quickly. 

This emphasizes why, for those that have SLR camera systems that they are happy with, I still feel there is no advantage in switching to full frame mirrorless now. There is nothing (yet) that is being missed out on by keeping your powder dry for the time being.

Before I get lynched (again) I should also for the record state that I do plan to switch, but only once there is a clear advantage in (my) doing so.

Even without spares working cameras will be available on the second hand market for quite some time.  It's not the DSLR that needs to show a benefit, it's the newcomer that needs to convince you to part with your hard-earned to upgrade.

[ChrisRoss 150]

12 hours ago, waterpixel said:

It does,  all Sony A7x from A7II offer ISO 50 as base ISO (but ISO 100 remains the minimum for auto ISO)

ISO 50 is extended ISO, the camera takes a shot and over exposes it by one stop and then adjust the exposure in processing and you lose a stop off the highlights.  Highlights riding on the edge will clip when processed and not be recoverable in post.

[Interceptor121 768]

43 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

ISO 50 is extended ISO, the camera takes a shot and over exposes it by one stop and then adjust the exposure in processing and you lose a stop off the highlights.  Highlights riding on the edge will clip when processed and not be recoverable in post.

Base ISO is a notion. A sensor has got no ISO it has a certain sensitivity at a given exposure time and aperture

So what the sensor can or not see only depends on the aperture and exposure time

However afterwards there is an analog amplifier. This is what maps to ISO. The base ISO is simply the level of gain that is applied to the signal which the manufacturer believes is getting the best performance out. In addition to this there is a level of exposure which is based on middle grey this is again a convention

A camera may have a base ISO of 50 and another one of 100 but at the end the one with 100 has higher dynamic range this is all you need because you will simply manipulate the exposure to fit in your envelope

So you never trust the camera when it tells you that is overexposing that is not necessarily true and based on a jpeg with 10 stops DR max

[Phil Rudin 459]

11 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I was not being negative. I was being practical

There is nothing wrong running to the end of the line especially for those shooters that are near to retirement (not your case)

I do not see however any significant benefits of DSLR at present with the exception of the behaviour of some macro lenses which has more to do with the lenses than the format

I fully agree with Adam, I know several folks that are still shooting Nikonos and Nikonos RS film cameras. I would expect the transition from DSLR to mirrorless to be about the same as the transition from film to digital, I know I went kicking and screaming from film long after many of my U/W photo friends went digital. 

On the issue of retirement this will be my twentieth year and I own the A1 and A7R V and I am not about to run to the end of any line. Just because you're old doesn't mean you need to act like it. I intend to try to have the best I can afford until I can't stand up with a tank on and then I will spend another decade exploring the wonders of shooting at the surface. 

Edited February 3 by Phil Rudin

[Interceptor121 768]

I fully agree with Adam, I know several folks that are still shooting Nikonos and Nikonos RS film cameras. I would expect the transition from DSLR to mirrorless to be about the same as the transition from film to digital, I know I went kicking and screaming from film long after many of my U/W photo friends went digital. 

On the issue of retirement this will be my twentieth year and I own the A1 and A7R V and I am not about to run to the end of any line. Just because you're old doesn't mean you need to act like it. I intend to try to have the best I can afford until I can't stand up with a tank on and then I will spend another decade exploring the wonders of shooting at the surface. 

Everyone makes their choices. I do not think hanging on to gear that works is an issue or acting or being old

My comment was only practical you have something that works and you get the results why change at all

Some other people instead embrace change it is just a preference. You did and others won't or will just when they must

[TimG 62]

On the transition thing, I can't say that moving from a D5 to a Z6 and Z9 for topside use was anything approaching traumatic. One of the biggest (and most annoying) changes was remembering to press the shutter before looking through the viewfinder. The rest have been pretty minor.

But I do think Massimo is right: if you have something that works and you get the results you want, why change it? Yeah, I love the flashy new toys and the thought of some of the capabilities. But really, will the new tech help me take better pics? Marginal. I really have my doubts. It's the same bloke behind the camera. With a D500 I can't say I need faster AF or more pixels; I do like the idea though of reviewing an image in the viewfinder.

I'm no Luddite and thought the Spinning Jenny and the Ravelling Nancy were wonderful developments. Sure mirrorless will be the way to go for the future underwater (as it is now topside). When I need something new as the D500 system is either clapped out or there is something dramatically new, it'll be mirrorless. Till then, hello D500, my friend. 

But if I was starting from scratch now, yep, I'd be checking out mirrorless options.