Sony A7RV freezing during super macro photography

[Crowie 5]

Hi all,

I’ve just returned from Tulamben in Bali where I did 9 dives over four days. My setup was a Nauticam housing with my new Sony A7RV and a Sony 90mm macro lens + wet AOI 16.5x diopter. I had the camera set in M mode throughout, with the lens set on 0.28-0.5m focus distance (once set on 0.28-infinity). I used AF-C and small spot or small spot tracking for focus area. I also used two Inon Z330’s.

I took about 1,000 shots during these 9 dives and my camera froze about 25-30 times!

I found that I could sometimes take up to 10-20 shots in one go with no problem (perhaps pausing for a few seconds between each shot), but on the next one, while the camera was hunting to lock focus on the same subject, all of a sudden it would completely freeze and lock up. The frozen image would remain on the screen for about 30 seconds even though I powered off the camera. About 30 seconds after the initial freeze, it would fire both strobes and then finally turn off properly with the image and screen also turning off. At that point I could turn it back on and use it as before. 

This would happen 1-2 times on some dives, on one dive it didn’t happen at all, but on others it would happen 5-8 times.

I should also add that prior to my A7RV I had an A7III with the same lens, strobes and diopter and occasionally had the camera freeze, but never as often as my A7RV. Another slight difference was that on the A7III when I powered it off after freezing, the screen would also turn off (unlike the A7RV). I sent the A7III to Sony for repairs (end of 2019) but it had exactly the same problem on my next dive and I gave up trying to fix it. I assumed it was a one-off and hoped my new camera would not have this problem. Sadly, it’s worse.

Anyway I’m going to take the A7RV into the Sony Service centre, but would like to hear if anyone else has had similar problems and managed to fix them.

Thanks in advance.

Paul

[Interceptor121 773]

38 minutes ago, Crowie said:

Hi all,

I’ve just returned from Tulamben in Bali where I did 9 dives over four days. My setup was a Nauticam housing with my new Sony A7RV and a Sony 90mm macro lens + wet AOI 16.5x diopter. I had the camera set in M mode throughout, with the lens set on 0.28-0.5m focus distance (once set on 0.28-infinity). I used AF-C and small spot or small spot tracking for focus area. I also used two Inon Z330’s.

I took about 1,000 shots during these 9 dives and my camera froze about 25-30 times!

I found that I could sometimes take up to 10-20 shots in one go with no problem (perhaps pausing for a few seconds between each shot), but on the next one, while the camera was hunting to lock focus on the same subject, all of a sudden it would completely freeze and lock up. The frozen image would remain on the screen for about 30 seconds even though I powered off the camera. About 30 seconds after the initial freeze, it would fire both strobes and then finally turn off properly with the image and screen also turning off. At that point I could turn it back on and use it as before. 

This would happen 1-2 times on some dives, on one dive it didn’t happen at all, but on others it would happen 5-8 times.

I should also add that prior to my A7RV I had an A7III with the same lens, strobes and diopter and occasionally had the camera freeze, but never as often as my A7RV. Another slight difference was that on the A7III when I powered it off after freezing, the screen would also turn off (unlike the A7RV). I sent the A7III to Sony for repairs (end of 2019) but it had exactly the same problem on my next dive and I gave up trying to fix it. I assumed it was a one-off and hoped my new camera would not have this problem. Sadly, it’s worse.

Anyway I’m going to take the A7RV into the Sony Service centre, but would like to hear if anyone else has had similar problems and managed to fix them.

Thanks in advance.

Paul

What flash trigger are you using and was it the same with the previous cameras?

[JayceeB 54]

For troubleshooting, you may have already tried this, but if not, consider:

1.  Try a different lens.  Same behavior?  Hopefully you can recreate the bug above water.

2.  Some cameras can be finicky with various memory cards.  Have you tried a different card?  Given your camera is a high rez Sony, QA likely ran the most test cycles with a Sony Tough Series card for your model.

[Interceptor121 773]

14 minutes ago, JayceeB said:

For troubleshooting, you may have already tried this, but if not, consider:

1.  Try a different lens.  Same behavior?  Hopefully you can recreate the bug above water.

2.  Some cameras can be finicky with various memory cards.  Have you tried a different card?  Given your camera is a high rez Sony, QA likely ran the most test cycles with a Sony Tough Series card for your model.

Yes good point

Generally look at memory card, anything connected through multi interface/hdmi/usc as potential culprits

Lens does not normally lock up but firmware update would be a good check

[TimG 62]

Curious that you had a similar though less frequent problem with the A7III.

Makes me wonder whether there is a button in the housing that is pressing too hard on one of the camera buttons. Can you maybe recreate the problem topside? If you can, try noting what buttons you are pressing.

This does sound, to me, like a housing button alignment problem especially as you had the same problem with the A7III even after a repair.

[JayceeB 54]

35 minutes ago, TimG said:

Curious that you had a similar though less frequent problem with the A7III.

Makes me wonder whether there is a button in the housing that is pressing too hard on one of the camera buttons. Can you maybe recreate the problem topside? If you can, try noting what buttons you are pressing.

This does sound, to me, like a housing button alignment problem especially as you had the same problem with the A7III even after a repair.

Good point.  See if you can recreate the problem out of the housing.  If you can't, it might be housing control issues.

[Crowie 5]

Many thanks for the feedback, some answers to the questions that have been raised:-

1. I’m using an UW technics TTL trigger (via optical connection), shooting in manual mode for most dives. I used a Nikkor electrical connection on my A7III.

2. I’m using the same Sony 90mm lens on the A7RV that I used on the A7III - I upgraded the lens firmware to the latest prior to any dives on this trip.

3. I did one blackwater dive with an APSC 30mm 3.5 macro lens and had no problems. I used TTL for this dive but was not shooting with nearly as much intensity, ie frequency, as when I take super macro.

4. I am using the same memory cards that I used with my A7III, so this is something I will definitely swap out.

The Nauticam housing is obviously new, all the buttons worked without problems so I don’t think it’s a housing issue. I really do think it’s something to do with the focusing when I’ve got the diopter on and the focus is working to stay locked on a very close subject. I will have a go at trying to recreate the setup on land, before taking the lens and camera into Sony. 

Many thanks again for the feedback.

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

[waterpixel 66]

I sometimes have the same freezing symptoms on my A7III (latest firmware), with the following setup/situation

• Nauticam trigger
• Sigma 15mm  + Sigma MC11 converter
• AFC focus mode (it does not happen in other focus modes)
• CFWA of a dark subject against a dark background (cave situation)

 

I will try to reproduce it with a memory card swap

Edited March 2 by waterpixel

[lambee01 22]

Hi

Before giving you my 2 cents possible explanation, let me tell you that i am using A1 in Nauticam and A7rIV also in Nauticam with same set-up as yours. I use both Turtle trigger and UWTechnics trigger.

My possible explantion, that i admit is completely weird : it may NOT be a freez of the camera, based on the description of events, but rather a long pose shot !

Yopu say that the screen stays on even if you switch off : that means that the canera is still taking the shot. You say that the flashes trigger at th end of the 30 seconds...

That sounds to me that the camera is working on Slow Sync flash mode. Rather than then a fast shutter speed (usually 1/60th to 1/250th as imposed by the flash trigger), if the trigger is off for a second, the camera goes back in non flash mode, and if its is super macro closed at F/18, and ISO 100, you exposure would for sure be around 20 to 30 seconds. And during the shoot, the UWTechnics may come back to life and then trigger the flash at the end of the exposure.

Do you have acess to the EXIF data of the pictures taken when it happens. You may find here the explanation

[oneyellowtang 96]

18 minutes ago, lambee01 said:

Hi

Before giving you my 2 cents possible explanation, let me tell you that i am using A1 in Nauticam and A7rIV also in Nauticam with same set-up as yours. I use both Turtle trigger and UWTechnics trigger.

My possible explantion, that i admit is completely weird : it may NOT be a freez of the camera, based on the description of events, but rather a long pose shot !

Yopu say that the screen stays on even if you switch off : that means that the canera is still taking the shot. You say that the flashes trigger at th end of the 30 seconds...

That sounds to me that the camera is working on Slow Sync flash mode. Rather than then a fast shutter speed (usually 1/60th to 1/250th as imposed by the flash trigger), if the trigger is off for a second, the camera goes back in non flash mode, and if its is super macro closed at F/18, and ISO 100, you exposure would for sure be around 20 to 30 seconds. And during the shoot, the UWTechnics may come back to life and then trigger the flash at the end of the exposure.

Do you have acess to the EXIF data of the pictures taken when it happens. You may find here the explanation

This (and trouble writing to a memory card) strikes me as the most plausible explanation, given the screen is staying on.

It's also interesting this happens in AFC mode.. Daughter and I will be diving with her A7RV with a nauticam flash trigger next week, will watch for this behavior.

[fruehaufsteher2 19]

2 hours ago, lambee01 said:

My possible explantion, that i admit is completely weird : it may NOT be a freez of the camera, based on the description of events, but rather a long pose shot !

Oh, that seems very reasonable!

[ChrisRoss 150]

you definitely want to be able to reproduce on land, if you can't do that Sony will look at it and return it stating they could find no problem, quite likely.   It is interesting you didn't get it with a different lens, perhaps try cleaning the lens contacts?  

[Crowie 5]

15 hours ago, lambee01 said:

Hi

Before giving you my 2 cents possible explanation, let me tell you that i am using A1 in Nauticam and A7rIV also in Nauticam with same set-up as yours. I use both Turtle trigger and UWTechnics trigger.

My possible explantion, that i admit is completely weird : it may NOT be a freez of the camera, based on the description of events, but rather a long pose shot !

Yopu say that the screen stays on even if you switch off : that means that the canera is still taking the shot. You say that the flashes trigger at th end of the 30 seconds...

That sounds to me that the camera is working on Slow Sync flash mode. Rather than then a fast shutter speed (usually 1/60th to 1/250th as imposed by the flash trigger), if the trigger is off for a second, the camera goes back in non flash mode, and if its is super macro closed at F/18, and ISO 100, you exposure would for sure be around 20 to 30 seconds. And during the shoot, the UWTechnics may come back to life and then trigger the flash at the end of the exposure.

Do you have acess to the EXIF data of the pictures taken when it happens. You may find here the explanation

Just a few more details on what happens - it’s always the same experience.

I am looking through the viewfinder, lock focus and fire off several shots - perhaps one every 2-3 seconds - while I try to get the best composition and focus. Whilst half pressing the shutter to lock focus, the screen sort of blinks a bit and then freezes. I haven’t actually clicked the shutter all the way to take the shot, I’m just trying to lock focus.

The camera resets and fires the strobes as I mentioned above, but I’ve never actually taken the shot and there is definitely no file showing on the memory card.

[TimG 62]

And this happens on land, outside the housing?

[Crowie 5]

45 minutes ago, TimG said:

And this happens on land, outside the housing?

I will get around to replicating the setup on land and seeing if I can trigger the same problem - I haven't experienced the problem on land to date, but of course the setup has been very different.

[Interceptor121 773]

6 hours ago, Crowie said:

I will get around to replicating the setup on land and seeing if I can trigger the same problem - I haven't experienced the problem on land to date, but of course the setup has been very different.

There are report of freeze with the 90mm and others top side if you search standard non underwater forums

You need to replicate the set up topside buth still using the same set up with trigger etc

Edited March 3 by Interceptor121

[Crowie 5]

Quick update. I’ve setup my rig topside with vacuum sealed housing, UW Technics optical trigger, strobes and focus light and couldn’t replicate the problem after about 200 shots. I will have another go later.

Realised I’d made a mistake in my earlier comment re upgrading the firmware - I did this on my 24-105mm lens. My firmware on this 90mm macro lens is the original version 0.01. Does anyone know if there has been an update to this? I haven’t been able to find anything online.

Thanks,

Paul

[Interceptor121 773]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:32 AM, waterpixel said:

I sometimes have the same freezing symptoms on my A7III (latest firmware), with the following setup/situation

• Nauticam trigger
• Sigma 15mm  + Sigma MC11 converter
• AFC focus mode (it does not happen in other focus modes)
• CFWA of a dark subject against a dark background (cave situation)

 

I will try to reproduce it with a memory card swap

The Sigma MC11 does not support CAF with any lens only SAF is supported and frankly why would you need CAF on a fisheye?

[ChrisRoss 150]

4 hours ago, Crowie said:

Quick update. I’ve setup my rig topside with vacuum sealed housing, UW Technics optical trigger, strobes and focus light and couldn’t replicate the problem after about 200 shots. I will have another go later.

Realised I’d made a mistake in my earlier comment re upgrading the firmware - I did this on my 24-105mm lens. My firmware on this 90mm macro lens is the original version 0.01. Does anyone know if there has been an update to this? I haven’t been able to find anything online.

Thanks,

Paul

you probably want to reproduce similar light levels if possible.  If you take a correctly exposed shot diving where you experience the problem ( no strobes - just meter to get a correctly exposed scene) you can look up the EXIF and see that you are close to the lighting strength when testing.   Indoor lighting is usually close to the sort of light levels when diving.

[TimG 62]

Paul

I suggest it would also be worth trying to recreate the issue topside without the housing. This would then help you eliminate whether it's a housing issue or a camera issue.

Slightly fiddly for sure but worthwhile. You don't need to worry about focus lights and I would think it unlikely that it's a trigger/strobes issue.

[Crowie 5]

2 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

you probably want to reproduce similar light levels if possible.  If you take a correctly exposed shot diving where you experience the problem ( no strobes - just meter to get a correctly exposed scene) you can look up the EXIF and see that you are close to the lighting strength when testing.   Indoor lighting is usually close to the sort of light levels when diving.

Thanks, yes, I tried to recreate the light levels earlier when I tested, mainly by just closing the curtains. Your suggestion makes sense although as I said above, in about 300 shots (rig setup as for underwater), I couldn’t reproduce the problem. I will have another go tomorrow.

cheers,

Paul

[waterpixel 66]

9 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

The Sigma MC11 does not support CAF with any lens only SAF is supported and frankly why would you need CAF on a fisheye? 

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

I have no indication that this is triggering the issue.

Paul, I have a sense that the freeze occurs when the AF-C is hunting between subjects (incl particles) which are not well lit, low contrast, and with high variability in DoF (ie glass of dome vs 50cm behind). I have had this issue 4-5 times (out of the tens of thousands of shots over last couple of years), but everytime it was in these conditions, in very dark environment (caves).

I believe this is why you are not able to reproduce it above water

 

But then I may be wrong and it could simply be a memory card issue and my conclusion from above is just a result of spurrious correlation from the low number of freezes I got. Just not enough data points

Edited March 4 by waterpixel

[Interceptor121 773]

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

Then you wonder why your camera freezes?


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[ChrisRoss 150]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Then you wonder why your camera freezes?


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This response is not adding to the discussion, waterpixel is merely relaying his experience.  Please consider that the poster is only trying to add to the discussion and please offer constructive responses.

[Interceptor121 773]

19 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

This response is not adding to the discussion, waterpixel is merely relaying his experience.  Please consider that the poster is only trying to add to the discussion and please offer constructive responses.

He said my camera is also freezing
Sigma mc11 and sigma 15mm caf
This combination is not supported by sigma the lens itself is not on their own compatibility list and is not used as intended which is SAF

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/faq/11799/

So it is likely to freeze any camera it is attached too due to misuse of the lens and adapter
In effect his problem has a different explanation to the one of the op who has a native lens


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Edited March 4 by Interceptor121