Sony A7RV freezing during super macro photography

[ChrisRoss 150]

15 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

He said my camera is also freezing
Sigma mc11 and sigma 15mm caf
This combination is not supported by sigma the lens itself is not on their own compatibility list and is not used as intended which is SAF

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/faq/11799/

So it is likely to freeze any camera it is attached too due to misuse of the lens and adapter
In effect his problem has a different explanation to the one of the op who has a native lens


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Yes and the response you provided here is fine, but just saying what you did is not constructive and does not come across well in text on an internet forum.

 Rather than say in effect  "you are wrong"  provide some context, you will note the OP stated that he was aware it is not officially supported but it worked for him and went on to elaborate on what he thinks might be the cause based on this.  It's not the first time people have reported a non officially supported feature  is working for them.  There may be times it does not work and that was noted and it is merely the sharing of experience.

[Interceptor121 765]

Yes and the response you provided here is fine, but just saying what you did is not constructive and does not come across well in text on an internet forum.
 Rather than say in effect  "you are wrong"  provide some context, you will note the OP stated that he was aware it is not officially supported but it worked for him and went on to elaborate on what he thinks might be the cause based on this.  It's not the first time people have reported a non officially supported feature  is working for them.  There may be times it does not work and that was noted and it is merely the sharing of experience.

Adapted lenses behave very different to native lenses
And even if your lens worked using it in an unsupported manner is not a good idea
Sigma is quite clear only single af is supported and there is a reason for that
Going back to the op there are reports of freeze with the R series and with several lenses
There are some good forums and facebook groups that are sony centric is a good idea to look there and then if you find nothing see if this has to do with the flash trigger
Putting a camera in a housing should never result in more issues than the camera lens already had


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[ChrisRoss 150]

7 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Adapted lenses behave very different to native lenses
And even if your lens worked using it in an unsupported manner is not a good idea
Sigma is quite clear only single af is supported and there is a reason for that
Going back to the op there are reports of freeze with the R series and with several lenses
There are some good forums and facebook groups that are sony centric is a good idea to look there and then if you find nothing see if this has to do with the flash trigger
Putting a camera in a housing should never result in more issues than the camera lens already had


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I'm not disputing any of this, it's all good information and advice, the only reason I weighed in was related to the original one line response and how it came across.  If you respond to posts like you have quoted above it's all good.

[Crowie 5]

7 hours ago, waterpixel said:

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

I have no indication that this is triggering the issue.

Paul, I have a sense that the freeze occurs when the AF-C is hunting between subjects (incl particles) which are not well lit, low contrast, and with high variability in DoF (ie glass of dome vs 50cm behind). I have had this issue 4-5 times (out of the tens of thousands of shots over last couple of years), but everytime it was in these conditions, in very dark environment (caves).

I believe this is why you are not able to reproduce it above water

 

But then I may be wrong and it could simply be a memory card issue and my conclusion from above is just a result of spurrious correlation from the low number of freezes I got. Just not enough data points

Alex, thanks, your description of the problem is very close to what seems to happen. Despite the number of times it has frozen, it’s difficult to explain the exact sequence of events leading up to it, but I know for sure that one second I have taken a bunch of pics, the next while still trying to focus, the green box seems to flicker a bit and then freeze.

It has been difficult replicating this top side cause the subjects I’m shooting are static. I’ve used track focus and move the subject around so the camera is working to stay focused, but it’s no where near as complicated as underwater. I’ve just ordered a second Sony cfexpress card so will use those on future dives. My next trip is wide angle in May but I’m almost certain I won’t see a repeat of the problem with that.

Thanks again all.

Paul

[Crowie 5]

5 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Adapted lenses behave very different to native lenses
And even if your lens worked using it in an unsupported manner is not a good idea
Sigma is quite clear only single af is supported and there is a reason for that
Going back to the op there are reports of freeze with the R series and with several lenses
There are some good forums and facebook groups that are sony centric is a good idea to look there and then if you find nothing see if this has to do with the flash trigger
Putting a camera in a housing should never result in more issues than the camera lens already had


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Thanks Interceptor121, I will do some more digging to find these groups - I’ve found a few discussions via Google, but no solutions to date… if you come across any please share them. Thanks, Paul

[Crowie 5]

One other thing to mention is that I’ve always written to both memory cards simultaneously in RAW format - same SD cards - for both my A7III and A7RV. I’ve not been able to replicate the problem top side today and am taking the camera and lens into the Sony service centre.

Edited March 5 by Crowie

[Interceptor121 765]

One other thing to mention is that I’ve always written to both memory cards simultaneously in RAW format - same SD cards - for both my A7III and A7RV. I’ve not been able to replicate the problem top side today and am taking the camera and lens into the Sony service centre.

This is an important detail your problem may be there
First some SD card hygiene
1. Never ever delete a single file until you copy all on your computer
2. Format the card in the camera fresh each time
3. Back up to card is only possible with two matched cards same brand same speed or you may have issues
4. Back up to card is normally a waste of time as if you flood the camera both will die and you just make the camera less responsive
Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can


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[lambee01 22]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

This is an important detail your problem may be there
First some SD card hygiene
1. Never ever delete a single file until you copy all on your computer
2. Format the card in the camera fresh each time
3. Back up to card is only possible with two matched cards same brand same speed or you may have issues
4. Back up to card is normally a waste of time as if you flood the camera both will die and you just make the camera less responsive
Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can


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Quite intersteing POV.
As professional photographer (real estate, food, events, portraits etc... in addition to UW Photo)) i have ALWAYS recorded my RAWs simultaneously on both CF cards in the past, and today SD cards on my Sonys. Just in case on card would corrupt. Nothing to do with flooding because flooding on land is likely to never happen.

Wondering your points 3 and 4 then.  Would be great if you could elaborate with not only UW in mind but also land photo.

[Interceptor121 765]

Quite intersteing POV. As professional photographer (real estate, food, events, portraits etc... in addition to UW Photo)) i have ALWAYS recorded my RAWs simultaneously on both CF cards in the past, and today SD cards on my Sonys. Just in case on card would corrupt. Nothing to do with flooding because flooding on land is likely to never happen.

Wondering your points 3 and 4 then.  Would be great if you could elaborate with not only UW in mind but also land photo.

 

That’s not for underwater but exactly for land photo. Writing to two cards slows down the time to have the camera available

Considering that in 30+ years I have not had a single card fail my approach is to have one card for photos and one for video

Failure of a camera is possible failure of a card (provided you follow guidelines) extremely rare so not worth doing things that put the camera under pressure

In addition doing back up requires matching cards (several discussions with technical teams of card producers on that)

Most people back up on a cheaper slower card and eventually lock up the camera

 

 

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[Crowie 5]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

This is an important detail your problem may be there
First some SD card hygiene
1. Never ever delete a single file until you copy all on your computer
2. Format the card in the camera fresh each time
3. Back up to card is only possible with two matched cards same brand same speed or you may have issues
4. Back up to card is normally a waste of time as if you flood the camera both will die and you just make the camera less responsive
Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can


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1. I am an IT guy so have at least 4 other copies of the files before I delete the originals!
2. The SD cards are all the same brand and size and always formatted in camera before every dive trip.
3. I write to both cards in case one were to fail, for any reason, but not really because of flooding. I try to backup the SD cards whilst on dive trips, but a second card provides extra redundancy.

 

[Interceptor121 765]

1. I am an IT guy so have at least 4 other copies of the files before I delete the originals!
2. The SD cards are all the same brand and size and always formatted in camera before every dive trip.
3. I write to both cards in case one were to fail, for any reason, but not really because of flooding. I try to backup the SD cards whilst on dive trips, but a second card provides extra redundancy.
 

When did one of your card fail individually the last time?


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[Crowie 5]

Just now, Interceptor121 said:

When did one of your card fail individually the last time?


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Never, but unless there are real benefits to NOT writing to both, I figure the redundancy costs me nothing. That said, I’d be willing to sacrifice the extra protection (however unlikely) if writing to a single card meant the camera not freezing. I’ve already upgraded to cfexpress cards (both Sony Tough cards) and will definitely give this a go on my next trip. 

[Interceptor121 765]

Never, but unless there are real benefits to NOT writing to both, I figure the redundancy costs me nothing. That said, I’d be willing to sacrifice the extra protection (however unlikely) if writing to a single card meant the camera not freezing. I’ve already upgraded to cfexpress cards (both Sony Tough cards) and will definitely give this a go on my next trip. 

Sd cards have physical issues i.e. they fall apart. But they are reliable
The files of the A7R cameras are huge and Sony doesn’t exactly excel in bus management so you may think you are protected against card failure while you are actually stressing the camera to write twice on the same bus.


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[TimG 62]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I suspect Sony will just saying Nothing To See Here, Folks. 

[lostloki 5]

I've had a freezing issue on my A7c with the 90mm and diopter, but only once with underwater so far... It was on an inon-67 which I have had for a mere 9months, but had it freeze once if I recall and never had a freeze on an inon-167.

However, on land I also use the A7c with 90mm macro and a Raynox DCR-250 diopter (a great and inexpensive diopter if you excuse the looks) which has caused the camera to freeze on a handful of occasions while shooting bugs and other wild macro subjects over the past 2 years.  I usually use DMF or AF-S with back button focusing for macro with the lens limited to 29-50cm.  I also you the old rocking method to regain focus and cannot remember the issue with these shots.

It's not a huge issue and generally hasn't happened while firing a stream of shots, it is usually the first focus shot or when I or the subject moves and I need to refocus.

Being in IT I use standard IT solution 3 - Switch it off, wait a few seconds and turn it on again.  It is best to turn it on without a diopter on I found.

I also find the Raynox need to be spotless and try to aviod any vinyetting with the raynox or the lens/camera af gets confused.

So would suggets it is not down SD cards or housing or even solely an uw issue but maybe a confussion of the af system.

As a side note when the lens limiter isn't set on I cannot remember this happening from memory, although AF takes longer. 

It doesn't deter me from the system or lens, as nothing is perfect.

[JayceeB 54]

12 hours ago, Crowie said:

One other thing to mention is that I’ve always written to both memory cards simultaneously in RAW format - same SD cards - for both my A7III and A7RV. I’ve not been able to replicate the problem top side today and am taking the camera and lens into the Sony service centre.

I wonder if writing to two cards uses more battery power?  Does it take longer to clear the buffer?  I would consider this a mandatory setup for weddings, but i've never written to two cards underwater.

[Interceptor121 765]

5 minutes ago, JayceeB said:

I wonder if writing to two cards uses more battery power?  Does it take longer to clear the buffer?  I would consider this a mandatory setup for weddings, but i've never written to two cards underwater.

There is extensive material on this

In essence a camera has only one ram buffer and one bus so it will write to two cards at the same time

The slower card will throttle the channel and if it errors lock up the camera.

It does use more battery and produces more heat how much difficult to say

 

[adamhanlon 0]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:41 AM, Interceptor121 said:

The Sigma MC11 does not support CAF with any lens only SAF is supported and frankly why would you need CAF on a fisheye?

@Interceptor121This discussion is about cameras freezing, not lens choices. Your opinion on the use of AF modes is hence irrelevant and hence your statement comes over as excessively argumentative. 

On 3/4/2023 at 5:48 PM, Interceptor121 said:

Then you wonder why your camera freezes?

Is unhelpful. No problem with your pointing out a compatibility issue, but your tone comes across as hectoring, dogmatic and aggressive. Please moderate your tone. 

I am aware that language nuances and the way we communicate with each other will vary for individual to individual, and we need to be tolerant of this, but please consider the way your posts appear before pressing post. 

[Crowie 5]

Quick update from my side.

Sony have had my camera and lens for a week and as expected they couldn’t replicate the exact problem. They rang me after the first couple of days to tell me they couldn’t find anything, but I was then able to give them the specific details of when/how the problem materialised and they tried for another couple of days.

They’ve just called back to say that when using fast memory cards they couldn’t find anything, but when they swapped to slow cards (I didn’t ask which ones, but presumably slower than the Sandisk SD Extreme Pro’s I’ve been using), the camera would occasionally freeze (image still on screen) whilst trying to write to the cards. He said it could take up to a minute to do this at which point the camera would then return to normal, ie without having to power it off. He could see the flashing led light showing it was still trying to write to the card.

I’m now wondering whether my camera would have returned to normal had I not turned it off whenever I experienced the problem - in the 30+ times this happened on my trip, I always tried turning it off/on to reset it and it would always take about 30 seconds to do so. Of course I wouldn’t have been able to see any flashing led light inside my housing.

This doesn’t explain why I couldn’t replicate the problem topside, but I’m looking for the positives! I will swap to cfexpress cards on my next trip, possibly even writing to a single card at a time.

Thanks again for the feedback, much appreciated.

Paul

[Davide DB 487]

Your wrote that after the freezing you didn't find photos on your card.

[Interceptor121 765]

34 minutes ago, Crowie said:

Quick update from my side.

Sony have had my camera and lens for a week and as expected they couldn’t replicate the exact problem. They rang me after the first couple of days to tell me they couldn’t find anything, but I was then able to give them the specific details of when/how the problem materialised and they tried for another couple of days.

They’ve just called back to say that when using fast memory cards they couldn’t find anything, but when they swapped to slow cards (I didn’t ask which ones, but presumably slower than the Sandisk SD Extreme Pro’s I’ve been using), the camera would occasionally freeze (image still on screen) whilst trying to write to the cards. He said it could take up to a minute to do this at which point the camera would then return to normal, ie without having to power it off. He could see the flashing led light showing it was still trying to write to the card.

I’m now wondering whether my camera would have returned to normal had I not turned it off whenever I experienced the problem - in the 30+ times this happened on my trip, I always tried turning it off/on to reset it and it would always take about 30 seconds to do so. Of course I wouldn’t have been able to see any flashing led light inside my housing.

This doesn’t explain why I couldn’t replicate the problem topside, but I’m looking for the positives! I will swap to cfexpress cards on my next trip, possibly even writing to a single card at a time.

Thanks again for the feedback, much appreciated.

Paul

As I wrote if you write to both cards and one for any reason chokes this can lock the camera looks like this is what is happening

The camera will eventually write to a sector on one of the card that is problematic and start going for a wonder

I recommend you consider writing only to one card if you upload your photos on a computer what is that you are protecting the potential failure of a single card vs another or the computer going lost?

For photos is fairly simple keep writing on that card without ever deleting a file and keep uploading on your computer every dive or every day. The issue is only if you don't have a computer but you can connect to a sony camera in a variety of ways and back up to a tablet or other device

[Crowie 5]

12 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

As I wrote if you write to both cards and one for any reason chokes this can lock the camera looks like this is what is happening

The camera will eventually write to a sector on one of the card that is problematic and start going for a wonder

I recommend you consider writing only to one card if you upload your photos on a computer what is that you are protecting the potential failure of a single card vs another or the computer going lost?

For photos is fairly simple keep writing on that card without ever deleting a file and keep uploading on your computer every dive or every day. The issue is only if you don't have a computer but you can connect to a sony camera in a variety of ways and back up to a tablet or other device

Thanks, yep I hear you, as I said before, if I don’t have any issues at all I would prefer the extra redundancy over not - I don’t always take a computer on my dive trips, although currently looking at the best options for portable backups on these trips. If I have any issues I will definitely switch to a single card. I may even try this on my current SD cards to check if this gets around the problem - it would be good to know this is definitely the problem.

[Crowie 5]

35 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Your wrote that after the freezing you didn't find photos on your card.

Yes I did say that, but then I always turned the camera off when it froze, so not sure if that would have prevented the camera from completing its writing to the card. I’m clutching at straws…

[TimG 62]

Impressive customer service to actually call you and talk through the issue. 

[Interceptor121 765]

Thanks, yep I hear you, as I said before, if I don’t have any issues at all I would prefer the extra redundancy over not - I don’t always take a computer on my dive trips, although currently looking at the best options for portable backups on these trips. If I have any issues I will definitely switch to a single card. I may even try this on my current SD cards to check if this gets around the problem - it would be good to know this is definitely the problem.

It is essential to take a device with high resolution on a trip
You don’t want to be shooting a whole week to find out tour shots were not in focus or the that you had more backscatter than you thought
I addition if you lost your camera you would loose everything I really don’t see what two cards are achieving as you have a single point of failure


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