Sony A1 - Canon 8-15 vs. Sony Primes for Wide Angle

[Lasongo 8]

Hi all,

Just made the switch to a Sony A1 from a Nikon D500 that I usually coupled with a Tokina 10-17 (occasionally a Nikkor 10-24).  I've used my new A1 with the Canon 8-15mm mounted on a Sigma adapter.  Although I'm really, really happy with the results thus far, I despise the 180 circular field-of-view and the shading in the corners when I zoom out, so that effectively limits me to shooting at 15mm.

I'm an almost exclusive wide angle shooter, and often have to get close to my subjects (10-12ft or less) to shoot them (due to visibility).  We're talking about large sharks, whales, etc...

Does anyone have any experience shooting with either the Sony Prime 12-24 or the Sony Prime 16-35, instead?  I'd love to have some flexibility in the zoom, instead of always shooting at 15mm on the Canon.

I've got numerous extension rings and domes, so there's not issue with pairing, compatibility or having to spend more on ports for the different lenses.  I did see on the Nauticam port charts that the Sony 16-35 pairs nicely with the WACP-2, and although that's not out of the question, I'd really rather not spend $9k on that if I don't need to.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/comments!

[ChrisRoss 150]

One option is to pair the 8-15 with a 1.4x and you could zoom between 15mm ( approx 11mm on lens) and 21mm.  This will give you a horizontal field of 144 - 102°  So full frame fisheye to approximately the field of view of a 14mm rectilinear. 

The other option is various flavours of the WACP with the recommended lenses, the WACP-C and WACP-1 with the 28-70 Sony lens gives the equivalent of a 13-40mm rectilinear lens in terms of horizontal field of view, the diagonal field is 130-59°.  This avoids the need for the big and bulky 230mm dome.  Image quality is as good or better than topline rectilinears behind big domes, the corners get progressively better as you spend more money on WACP versions, though possibly this is less important if you are shooting big animals in blue water with no real details in the corners.  So the WACP-C may be good enough.

[Lasongo 8]

12 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

One option is to pair the 8-15 with a 1.4x and you could zoom between 15mm ( approx 11mm on lens) and 21mm.  This will give you a horizontal field of 144 - 102°  So full frame fisheye to approximately the field of view of a 14mm rectilinear. 

The other option is various flavours of the WACP with the recommended lenses, the WACP-C and WACP-1 with the 28-70 Sony lens gives the equivalent of a 13-40mm rectilinear lens in terms of horizontal field of view, the diagonal field is 130-59°.  This avoids the need for the big and bulky 230mm dome.  Image quality is as good or better than topline rectilinears behind big domes, the corners get progressively better as you spend more money on WACP versions, though possibly this is less important if you are shooting big animals in blue water with no real details in the corners.  So the WACP-C may be good enough.

Interesting, never though of using a teleconverter on that lens.  Thanks for the suggestion!  You think that would eliminate the circular-effect while also maintaining a good FOV?  Ideally, I'd love to have a FOV of 120 or more (again without the circular effect if possible)

Also, do you think it would be best paired with a 230mm dome or 180mm?

[Interceptor121 843]

I have tested the Kenko 1.4 with the Canon 8-15mm on my A1 in the pool and I am going to put up some considerations on my blog during the weekend

It remains a distorted image like the Nauticam Water Contact Optics but the field of view only overlaps when the 8-15mm with TC is full zoomed. So the two solutions are complementary not exclusive

You use the Teleconverter with the same port you use without it so Glass Dome 140mm or if you fancy Acrylic 4.33"

No need for larger dome ports for the Canon 8-15mm

[ChrisRoss 150]

17 hours ago, Lasongo said:

Interesting, never though of using a teleconverter on that lens.  Thanks for the suggestion!  You think that would eliminate the circular-effect while also maintaining a good FOV?  Ideally, I'd love to have a FOV of 120 or more (again without the circular effect if possible)

Also, do you think it would be best paired with a 230mm dome or 180mm?

Yes it does, you will get part circular from 8mm (as marked on the lens through to about 10.5/11mm focal length and it then it fills the frame frame -  10.7 x 1.4 = 15mm focal length and this where you get the frame filled.  same as bare lens at 15mm

From 11mm through 15mm on the lens you can zoom and at full zoom you have the same frame width approximately as a 14mm rectilinear wide angle lens 102° wide it might be enough for a lot of uses.  It still has fisheye distortion just not as pronounced.  Note that you can't equate fisheye and rectilinear focal lengths so comparing to a rectilinear lens like the 12-24 takes some calculations.  to estimate coverage.

you can use it in a 140mm dome, you have to find the right version of the kenko 1.4x to work on your setup.  It is used as it doesn't have the projecting nose

though a user on here reported that he could use the combination Camera - Sony 1.4x - Metabones adapter - Can 8-15 and it worked fine.  The metabones central hole was big enough to fit the extended nose of the Sony 1.4x.  This is the post: 

 

 

[ChrisRoss 150]

Just now, ChrisRoss said:

Yes it does, you will get part circular from 8mm (as marked on the lens through to about 10.5/11mm focal length and it then it fills the frame frame -  10.7 x 1.4 = 15mm focal length and this where you get the frame filled.  same as bare lens at 15mm

From 11mm through 15mm on the lens you can zoom and at full zoom you have the same frame width approximately as a 14mm rectilinear wide angle lens 102° wide it might be enough for a lot of uses.  It still has fisheye distortion just not as pronounced.  Note that you can't equate fisheye and rectilinear focal lengths so comparing to a rectilinear lens like the 12-24 takes some calculations.  to estimate coverage.

you can use it in a 140mm dome,   The 230mm dome will also work but not necessary , I wouldn't use the 180mm dome.

You have to find the right version of the kenko 1.4x to work on your setup.  It is used as it doesn't have the projecting nose

though a user on here reported that he could use the combination Camera - Sony 1.4x - Metabones adapter - Can 8-15 and it worked fine.  The metabones central hole was big enough to fit the extended nose of the Sony 1.4x.  This is the post: 

 

 

 

[Lasongo 8]

@ChrisRoss@Interceptor121

Thank you so much, this is insanely helpful and looks like it'll save me a chunk of change over what I was expecting.  Appreciate ya'lls help!

[Phil Rudin 485]

Hello Julian, 

As Senior Reviewer for UWPMAG.com I have posted more reviews on lenses for Sony full frame cameras than another brand. I have also used and reviewed WWL-1& WWL-1B, I also own and used WACP-C  in a review. In addition I have used WACP-1 and WACP-2. Several of the lenses I have reviewed like Rokinon 14mm and 18mm don't appear on Nauticam's port chart or another port chart I am aware of. I own both the 12-24mm F/ & F2.8 lenses you addressed in your original post. Among others I have used 100mm, 140mm, 8" and 8" compact, 200m, 230mm, 240mm and 305mm domes in combination with a verity of housings and camera brands.

If you go to UWPMAG.com, click on back issues and type my name into the search engine you will get a list of over 100 reviews and you can chose the lens reviews that may interest you. This is a free PDF download and no adverts will be sent to you. all listed in the many reviews about Sony products. You may want to read a few of these to help make a well informed choice. 

Regarding wet wide lenses like WACP-C and others with "kit" type lenses my experience is that wet wides outperform land lenses with a dome in most case given like starting points. Regarding the Canon 8-15 I have been using it now for about seven years with Sony FF cameras. For me it is two very different lenses in one. The circular end is loved or loathed by most and for those that use it the big issue is  wether to display photos in 1:1 or in 3:2 format. The 15/14mm end gives a full frame image as you know and suffered from the same distortion as other 15/16mm fisheyes on full frame. For me the tele converter is extra glass that allows you to use the lenses and remain full frame but not as wide which again appeals to some and not to others. 

 

 

[Lasongo 8]

2 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

Hello Julian, 

As Senior Reviewer for UWPMAG.com I have posted more reviews on lenses for Sony full frame cameras than another brand. I have also used and reviewed WWL-1& WWL-1B, I also own and used WACP-C  in a review. In addition I have used WACP-1 and WACP-2. Several of the lenses I have reviewed like Rokinon 14mm and 18mm don't appear on Nauticam's port chart or another port chart I am aware of. I own both the 12-24mm F/ & F2.8 lenses you addressed in your original post. Among others I have used 100mm, 140mm, 8" and 8" compact, 200m, 230mm, 240mm and 305mm domes in combination with a verity of housings and camera brands.

If you go to UWPMAG.com, click on back issues and type my name into the search engine you will get a list of over 100 reviews and you can chose the lens reviews that may interest you. This is a free PDF download and no adverts will be sent to you. all listed in the many reviews about Sony products. You may want to read a few of these to help make a well informed choice. 

Regarding wet wide lenses like WACP-C and others with "kit" type lenses my experience is that wet wides outperform land lenses with a dome in most case given like starting points. Regarding the Canon 8-15 I have been using it now for about seven years with Sony FF cameras. For me it is two very different lenses in one. The circular end is loved or loathed by most and for those that use it the big issue is  wether to display photos in 1:1 or in 3:2 format. The 15/14mm end gives a full frame image as you know and suffered from the same distortion as other 15/16mm fisheyes on full frame. For me the tele converter is extra glass that allows you to use the lenses and remain full frame but not as wide which again appeals to some and not to others. 

 

 

@Phil Rudin thank you so much for the suggestion to check the back issues, I will definitely read through some of those this evening!  My main concern is shooting large animals (primarily whales) in questionable visibility (20ft max) which means I need to get very close.  When shooting with my old rig (D500 w/ 10-17), that wasn't much of an issue at 10-12ish.  I really don't like the circular fisheye look, so I'm stuck shooting at 15 right now and am just looking for alternatives.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the past reviews!

[ChrisRoss 150]

2 hours ago, Lasongo said:

@Phil Rudin thank you so much for the suggestion to check the back issues, I will definitely read through some of those this evening!  My main concern is shooting large animals (primarily whales) in questionable visibility (20ft max) which means I need to get very close.  When shooting with my old rig (D500 w/ 10-17), that wasn't much of an issue at 10-12ish.  I really don't like the circular fisheye look, so I'm stuck shooting at 15 right now and am just looking for alternatives.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the past reviews!

If you are doing whales and zooming in just a little on the 10-17 the 8-15 plus 1.4x reproduces that exactly.  They even have a zoom gear for using the kenko 1.4x.  If you wanted to use the Sony 1.4x that may require a custom gear.  I'm not sure what the thickenss between flanges is on the Sony, it is 20mm on the Kenko and requires a 20mm extension tube to compensate. for the falnge thickness of the TC.

[Interceptor121 843]

If you are doing whales and zooming in just a little on the 10-17 the 8-15 plus 1.4x reproduces that exactly.  They even have a zoom gear for using the kenko 1.4x.  If you wanted to use the Sony 1.4x that may require a custom gear.  I'm not sure what the thickenss between flanges is on the Sony, it is 20mm on the Kenko and requires a 20mm extension tube to compensate. for the falnge thickness of the TC.

Correct
The kenko TC is 19mm requiring a 20mm to extension and a special zoom gear. The diagonal field of view goes from 172 degrees (15mm end) to 124 degrees (21mm end)
There is overlap with water contact optics only at the tele end so the two options are not alternative but complementary
You need a metabones adapter to work with the kenko and autofocus works well
Working with a Sony 1.4TC you have an issue with the N100 extension length not recommended


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[Gudge 59]

1 hour ago, ChrisRoss said:

I'm not sure what the thickenss between flanges is on the Sony,

 

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Working with a Sony 1.4TC you have an issue with the N100 extension length not recommended

The flange distance on the Sony 1.4X teleconverter is 17mm.  Ideally, you need a 17mm extension but with my Nauticam rig the extension rings only come in increments of 5mm.  I already had a 20mm extension ring so I tried that and was happy with the results and decided that it wasn;t worth spending a bunch of dollars on a 15mm extension ring to see if that was any better.

[Lasongo 8]

Thank ya'll for the info on the spacing and setup.  Ideally, I'd love to proceed with a Sony TC, as would also use it for topside stuff.  However, I just noticed that it looks like Nauticam doesn't currently offer a N100 extension in 20mm...only 30mm and above.

I currently have the Nauticam 35.5mm N100 to N120 Port Adapter.

However, Nauticam does offer a 55mm N100 to N120 Port Adapter.  Do ya'll think that would work with the Sony 1.4x TC, as @Gudge shared the measurement is 17mm.  That would be a 19.5mm difference (55mm - 35.5mm)

Do ya'll think that would work instead of scouring the internet for a mythical N100 20mm extension?

[ChrisRoss 150]

The way it works is you go to the last entry on the Sony port chart which says you need a N100-N120 35.5mm adapter and then use the Canon EF port Chart. 

The Canon EF port chart says with the 140mm dome you use a 30mm extension for the 8-15 and a 50mm extension for the 8-15 + 1.4x.  If you already use the 8-15 in the 140mm and you have as you say the 35.5mm N100-N120, presumably you have a 30mm N120 extension plus the 140mm dome. 

To also use the 1.4x option (either kenko or Sony) seeing as how you already have a 30mm extension then add a 20mm N120 extension.  The extension is generally used in front of the N100-N120 adapter.  You could always shell out for the 50mm extension as well, but it's probably more $$.

This is the Canon EF port chart:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/16Gnv4zPoocXyF0W8R3SIfuM541HJ70He/view

You can get part numbers for your zoom gear from the chart.  You also need the right model Metabones for the Sony 1.4x to fit  You could always try your sigma adapter first to see if it fits and works with the Sony 1.4x. 

The 55mm adapter would also work in conjunction with the 30mm extension you have but would be more $$ than a 20mm N120 extension. 

 

[Interceptor121 843]

The flange distance on the Sony 1.4X teleconverter is 17mm.  Ideally, you need a 17mm extension but with my Nauticam rig the extension rings only come in increments of 5mm.  I already had a 20mm extension ring so I tried that and was happy with the results and decided that it wasn;t worth spending a bunch of dollars on a 15mm extension ring to see if that was any better.

If you have the TC already you can try but the entrance pupil is now going back 3mm and the gear is off 2mm

The kenko teleconverter is designed for the canon ef mount so it is flush to the metabones
The metabones itself is 26mm while the sony tc protrudes 16.6mm so the tc won’t go right on the back of the lens the converter may act as a mix of extension tube and teleconverter and non longer focus at infinity
This is not an issue inside the dome provides the lens can still focus at the virtual image infinity point
Few questions

1. How does the zoom gear work?
2. At which point it stops vignetting?
3. How does the focus work?


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[fruehaufsteher2 23]

You all are aware that the Sony-TC does not fit to all lenses because it protrudes far into the lens...?

 

[Architeuthis 192]

10 minutes ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

You all are aware that the Sony-TC does not fit to all lenses because it protrudes far into the lens...?

 

 

According to the report of Grudge the extension should not be a problem, as the TC extents into the Metabones adapter. The sequence of elements is different between using Sony and Kenko TCs: #1 Canon-EF lens/Kenko 1.4xTC (EF mount)/Metabones adapter/Camera. #2.: Canon-EF lens/Metabones adapter/Sony 1.4xTC (Sony FE mount)/Camera...

=> From the principle, both converters should work perfect, as the Kenko is designed to work at the end of a lens with Canon-EF mount flange distance (hence the Kenko is mounted directly to the lens) and the Sony TC is designed to work at the end of a lens with Sony-FE flange distance (that is restored by mounting the adapter between lens and TC)...

=> In practice one must say that both TC have been designed to work together with specific tele lenses and the optical performance together with the Canon 8-15mm fisheye may well be different. A TC mounted to a fisheye lens is rather a "misuse" of the TC and a comparison of optical performance between the two TCs would be very interesting...

 

Wolfgang

 

[fruehaufsteher2 23]

38 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

According to the report of Grudge the extension should not be a problem, as the TC extents into the Metabones adapter. The sequence of elements is different between using Sony and Kenko TCs: #1 Canon-EF lens/Kenko 1.4xTC (EF mount)/Metabones adapter/Camera. #2.: Canon-EF lens/Metabones adapter/Sony 1.4xTC (Sony FE mount)/Camera...

Hi Wolfgang,

 

thank you, I was not aware that it is possible to mount the TC direct to the camera, then the metabones, then the lens.

I am using the adapter with my 200-600 but to be honest, the result is not massively better than the crop. On the A7RV or the A1 the need for TC would even be further reduced.

OK, a little improvement is provided by the TC

[ChrisRoss 150]

A tele converter always downgrades the image some and you lose a stop, but whether it's successful or not depends largely on how good the master lens is without the TC.  If there are aberrations they are also magnified.

The use of a TC on a fisheye is not conventional but it seems to work.  The Kenko image quality may not be fantastic but seems it is good enough, the Sony 1.4x may perhaps be better.  Wetpixel member @Gudge certainly reports the quality is good.  It may be an option for other systems as well if people have the pieces it might be worth trying them out an Canon and Nikon systems.

[Phil Rudin 485]

11 hours ago, Lasongo said:

Thank ya'll for the info on the spacing and setup.  Ideally, I'd love to proceed with a Sony TC, as would also use it for topside stuff.  However, I just noticed that it looks like Nauticam doesn't currently offer a N100 extension in 20mm...only 30mm and above.

I currently have the Nauticam 35.5mm N100 to N120 Port Adapter.

However, Nauticam does offer a 55mm N100 to N120 Port Adapter.  Do ya'll think that would work with the Sony 1.4x TC, as @Gudge shared the measurement is 17mm.  That would be a 19.5mm difference (55mm - 35.5mm)

Do ya'll think that would work instead of scouring the internet for a mythical N100 20mm extension?

Hi Julian,

Lots of useful information has been suggested above and I would add this. Before you invest in anymore equipment you may want to see if adding the tele is going to suite your needs. This can simply be done with the basic Nauticam setup for the Canon 8-15mm. If you already own the lens, gear and N100 to N120 35.5 port adapter, N120 30 extension and 140mm dome. On the A1 assign a button for APS-C to one of the housing controls and toggle between the lens shooting in full frame and the APS-C. In APS-C you will get the same file size as your D500 and you will get an idea how this will actually work for you looking into the EVF/LCD underwater. I am well aware that this can be done in post by popping a full frame image but it's just not the same as doing it in the water. The APS-C mode is a 1.5 rather than the tele 1.4 but you can get an idea if this difference works for you before you make any further investment.

[ChrisRoss 150]

7 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

Hi Julian,

Lots of useful information has been suggested above and I would add this. Before you invest in anymore equipment you may want to see if adding the tele is going to suite your needs. This can simply be done with the basic Nauticam setup for the Canon 8-15mm. If you already own the lens, gear and N100 to N120 35.5 port adapter, N120 30 extension and 140mm dome. On the A1 assign a button for APS-C to one of the housing controls and toggle between the lens shooting in full frame and the APS-C. In APS-C you will get the same file size as your D500 and you will get an idea how this will actually work for you looking into the EVF/LCD underwater. I am well aware that this can be done in post by popping a full frame image but it's just not the same as doing it in the water. The APS-C mode is a 1.5 rather than the tele 1.4 but you can get an idea if this difference works for you before you make any further investment.

This where calculations come in,  The OP has already said above he was happy with the view offered by the Tokina 10-17 at 10-12mm range.  This range is 15-18mm on a full frame system and the 8-15 with a 1.4x gives a lens with  11-21mm focal length range.  The 11-15mm range is not usable as it doesn't fill the frame or provide a circular image, but 15 -21 mm is perfectly usable.  It's not quite as much reach as 10-17 on APS-C. 

You can certainly try it out and using APS-C crop is perfectly viable way to test it, but if you have to go on a 2 week trip to Tonga for humpback whales for example you won't have the optimum solution with you for that trip and you may not have whales to play with close to home to test.

[Gudge 59]

19 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

.......may act as a mix of extension tube and teleconverter and non longer focus at infinity
This is not an issue inside the dome provides the lens can still focus at the virtual image infinity point
Few questions

1. How does the zoom gear work?
2. At which point it stops vignetting?
3. How does the focus work?

I know it doesn't matter behind a dome port but just for interest sake this combination does focus at infinity (at least the lightpole a100m up my street  )

1. I made my own custom zoom gear.  It has the advantage that if I want to use the 8-15 without the 1.4X teleconverter all I have to do is fit it in reverse on the lens.:
   
   
   
2. It stops vignetting at 11.2mm set on the lens.  Vignetting is quite strong at 11mm
3. Autofocus speed is good, I don't really notice any difference between using the lens with and without the teleconveter.

17 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

You all are aware that the Sony-TC does not fit to all lenses because it protrudes far into the lens...?

Yes, see photo above.

 

 

[Interceptor121 843]

Yes, see photo above.

 

 

Thanks for the photo
For clarity to others here you don’t need to use N100 20mm extension you can use N120 and have the same set up of the kenko
My question was if the nauticam zoom gear worked and the answer is unknown as that is a custom gear
The vignetting comes from the fact that the sony tc is 2mm shorter so the lens is slightly behind the ideal point this combination will not offer the same field of view of the kenko but the difference is small
As I see it if you already had the sony TC this is a viable option
However if you only had to get the teleconverter for underwater use it would not make sense as the kenko is substantially cheaper I bought mine new for £149


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