Policy for commercial links to blogs/external websites

[adamhanlon 0]

Dear community,

I think we need to discuss an issue that has occurred recently on the forums, although it is not a new phenomena. Frankly, I am not sure whether this needs a formal policy, but I do think we need to discuss it!

There are some active members that link extensively to their external blogs and other publications. These member derive a commercial benefit, either by being paid to write for a publication, or via the use of (for example) affiliate links in their blogs. Wetpixel's commercial policy does not generally allow commercial advertising within the forums, and if increased footfall due to link sharing results in commercial benefit, it could be argued that these posts fall under this policy. 

As a counterpoint, I think that it is unrealistic and would actually be counterproductive to prevent people with lots of relevant experience from sharing this with the community. If the commercial links are open and transparent, individuals are aware of their existence? 

Thoughts and ideas please!

[Davide DB 493]

1 hour ago, adamhanlon said:

As a counterpoint, I think that it is unrealistic and would actually be counterproductive to prevent people with lots of relevant experience from sharing this with the community. If the commercial links are open and transparent, individuals are aware of their existence? 

IMHO this is the point.

Commercial links should be clearly visible to forum users. No foggy url shortener that hides affiliate program and such.

On the other side, affiliated links could easily be removed by the poster pointing directly to the resource. I.e. I want to suggest a piece of gear. Why I would add my Amazon affiliated program code?

Of course if I link a Backscatter review, it's a commercial link but, ok we don't want WP being a walled garden...

Forum users should be so intelligent as to understand the limit of the issue and have a useful discussion here on the forum as the ultimate goal. We should safeguard one of the last places where discussion and confront on topics we care is still possible outside of social networks.

I understand that is a slippery topic

 

[Interceptor121 769]

I have a blog but the subscription I use has no ads it is a feature of wordpress to choose if you want random ads or remove them. This costs me money and I make no money directly from it.

I have decided to remove them mostly because they are not targeted and are seen as spam

Within what I write there are sometimes affiliate links. The general approach to affiliate links is that nobody other than the seller (amazon in this case) pays anything until something happens. To the end user it makes no difference whatsoever if the links is affiliate or not. In addition they can decide to buy something else. In my case I suggest what I use and I know how it works I don't get send stuff normally to run a test and if I do I write it clearly and anyway don't get paid for it.

There is another challenge once you are an affiliate and you share an item on the amazon app you always get an affiliate link by default and frankly unless there is a policy not to post an affiliate link I minimise the effort to find another link

As of today my blog generates near zero affiliate revenues because the UW audience is very specific and small

On YouTube the situation is different, there I do some reviews again of things I use for myself or I have used for myself and there you cannot easily dump links into the video. The standard is to disclose that you are using affiliate links but also that you did not get paid to do that review or else. If you did you need to say that to YouTube

As a end user I do not care at all about affiliates, as they cost me nothing, and if I see sponsored content or not makes no difference to my take on a review made by others.

In the specific of wetpixel I wrote sometimes extremely long articles with over 10-15 images which are impossible to post in full in a forum for a variety of reasons:

1. Limits on attachments

2. Unworkable to have drafts

3. Limit on the number of words and styles

So if I have a question that is simple I post it as a question on the forum or I participate to the forum however I would not use a forum as a proxy for a blog where I have full control of content which includes copyright considerations on the work I do

I am aware of other people that are paid to do review and then refer to those in the forum and those then point to other magazines services which are free to the user and based on advertising and that is totally fine too

On the other side if there is an interesting article on wetpixel or on the forum I also refer this into my content and I do not care either about the benefit to wetpixel

 

Now when it comes to where some affiliate money comes from is actually YouTube and not for underwater stuff

I post a generic review on HDMI monitors or batteries I get many clicks, I post a review of underwater equipment I have two issues

1. There is no affiliate scheme

2. The audience is too little

For this reason I have decided to limit the effort of shooting a video for underwater purposes to things that are not too technical to require a write down. it is not possible to edit a video you shot and addressing comments is not straightforward so it is better for things that are very much definitive and mostly simple to digest.

In my opinion forums are already dropping in traffic and removing content, even third party, on the basis that someone may getting money and not even from you is not a good approach and besides it is not forbidden by the rules of the forum.

The entire internet is there to be used what is the point of trying to police your garden when google finds it anyway?

As the content is not spam and the UW population is miniscule part of the worldwide population, I would recomment to let it be and leave the users to understand what to do with the link provided as opposed to remove content they would not anyway be able to find

 

Edited March 21 by Interceptor121

[hyp 112]

Although Interceptor is probably one the people who link to their blog most frequently I agree with him. I also appreciate the transparency on the financial workings of his blog. To be fair the stores that use most affiliate links (Amazon especially) are not really that important for our gear which is still predominantly sold in specialist stores. I’d vote to keep being lenient and only police those where a primary commercial interest is obvious. As an example there is a German diving community where one Store in particular offers loads of advice but also often uses the board for customer acquisition. That to me seems to cross the line. 

[Phil Rudin 461]

I am listed on Wetpixel as an industry member which I am so I would like to address this concern from an industry perspective. 

This issue seems simple to me, the adverts in the sidebar on Wetpixel are marked Advertisements and Sponsors these links are clearly paid for by the manufacturer or other businesses. If you click on an advertiser link a new page opens and you have moved completely away from Wetpixel. If you click on a sponsor a second window opens next to the Wetpixel page. 

Any other link that is attached in a post directs you to a page which is not paying Wetpixel for advertising. I won't even get into the number of folks that bitch about copyright infringement and then post work that is not their own. 

Wetpixel allows you to add a link to your Instagram page, web page, YouTube page and others in your profile. This seems to me to be enough free advertising for those who have an agenda beyond helpful information. 

I think respect should be shown to those who pay for advertising and that others should direct readers to any additional information by providing a web address and letting the reader do the work rather than spoon feeding every link. This will reduce copyright infringement and free access to links with monetary reward large or tiny.   

[dhaas 36]

Weighing in I'm also still likely listed as "industry" despite having no web site, no dealerships etc. for a few years now.

I think advertisers and links are easily determined. Individuals who have personal web sites and contribute opinions are fine in my book. You choose to go there or not.  I never understood why this was a big deal except for Phil's observation that advertising keeps Adam's ability to keep the site alive and agree.

I will say one other thing.......

There were a lot of industry folks who quit helping people with their gear and I was one. I always clearly identified myself when I was a dealer and tried to help people get the best use of their purchased gear.

The reason I and others quit was it reached a "no benefit for the pain" after awhile......

Trying honestly to help was always suspect and we were called all sorts of names    Yet a person who couldn't put a nut and bolt together was allowed to crap all over a piece of equipment with many creating their own problems. Oh the stories I could tell !!!!!

Good underwater photographers are part photographer, part mechanically and sometimes electrically / electronic inclined and more. You can be 1 for 3,    2 for 3   or all   but no one knows it all.....

I was here when Eric started the site, contributed some, argued some and more.....But it was always to try and help people enjoy underwater imaging.......

Dear old Ike Brigham of Ikelite was here in the early days and would occasionally remind people "We just try and waterproof equipment as a lower cost alternative.  No matter what there will always be some person who can figure out how to break or flood it."

I miss that guy  

In summary, try and support the advertisers, let people share their insights as it usually sorts itself out in the end

Just one old guy's opinion!

David Haas

[JohnLiddiard 31]

I don't have a problem as long a the post offers some direct value and is not only a means of spamming a link. Even then, as long as its helpful in answering a question...

Example:

Diver A starts a thread, "I am considering kit XX, any opinions?"

Diver B replies "We have a review of that on our shop's channel'" ( Marginal, but OK as long as Diver B doesn't only post that kind of response)

Diver C replies "Here are some basic details, we also have a review of that on our shop's channel with a bit more info'" (Always OK because it adds value without needing to visit the link. The link can add further value)

 

 

[adamhanlon 0]

In terms of longer articles/reviews, the correct venue for these is the Wetpixel front page. This allows for an element of editorial control, and prevents the use of affiliate links etc. With front page articles, we have control over what is posted and can also ensure that the source of the post is correctly identified with any brand sponsorship etc.

I am very happy to post articles written by active shooters as they have experience and knowledge that is of huge value to our community. However, many of these individual have relationships with manufacturers, and this needs to be clearly identified and when necessary any "advertorial" text removed. 

For what it is worth, Wetpixel does not use affiliate links in its articles or posts.

One of the key concepts of our forums is that information is shared freely and without the expectation of direct commercial benefit. I think of this as a guiding principle. So when a forum post links to a third party site wherein the poster derives a commercial benefit, this seems to go against this ethos? 

[Interceptor121 769]

9 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

In terms of longer articles/reviews, the correct venue for these is the Wetpixel front page. This allows for an element of editorial control, and prevents the use of affiliate links etc. With front page articles, we have control over what is posted and can also ensure that the source of the post is correctly identified with any brand sponsorship etc.

I am very happy to post articles written by active shooters as they have experience and knowledge that is of huge value to our community. However, many of these individual have relationships with manufacturers, and this needs to be clearly identified and when necessary any "advertorial" text removed. 

For what it is worth, Wetpixel does not use affiliate links in its articles or posts.

One of the key concepts of our forums is that information is shared freely and without the expectation of direct commercial benefit. I think of this as a guiding principle. So when a forum post links to a third party site wherein the poster derives a commercial benefit, this seems to go against this ethos? 

I would agree however in my case my affiliate links point to general photography equipment mostly lenses, USB parts accessories not to underwater parts which are in competition with wetpixels advertisers. Those items are either not sold at all by those shops and if they are they are not their prime business by any mean

I would see a problem if someone was writing something that then pointed elsewhere but after all it is always the same people

For example in the case of Phil Rudin he points to UWPmag but UWPmag issues are also on the front page of wetpixel so I see no issue

I am struggling to see in practical terms what are the specific examples you are worried Adam. Can you elaborate with a specific case instead of generics?

Edited March 26 by Interceptor121