Canon: High-end A series or low end S series? (or Fuji f810)

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Heya everyone. I'm thinking of getting a digital for underwater and was looking at the canons. I was just wondering if it would be smarter to get a high-end A series like the A95 or an s60 or something on the lower end of the S series. They seem like similar prices and so i was wondering if anyone had an opinion on the differences between the two different series.

 

Thanks!!

Chris

[anthp 0]

Hey Monkey_Knife_Fight!

 

Welcome to the briney.

 

My feeling is that you would be better served in the longer term by housing an S60.

 

Both the A95 and S60 are very similarly spec'd and priced, but there is one key difference - S60 does RAW. Now, topside, this is relatively less of an issue, but UW it can be a bit of a problem.

 

Primarily, the difficulty lies in the handling of white-balance (WB). Topside, you can easily measure WB and then set the camera appropriately. UW, you want to maximise the time you have down there actually shooting and therefore it is extremely handy to be able to set the WB after the dive. There are of course a number of other significant benefits to shooting RAW in terms of post-shot handling of sharpening/tone/curves etc., which can also add to the overall image quality of a shot. Now, that's not to say it's all good...

 

Shooting RAW means big files and therefore longer write times and also more processing time once you get out of the water. Guess it really depends on what your expectations are and how picky you are with image quality.

 

Both the A95 and S60 will accept external UW lenses and strobes from INON which makes them appear quite similar. However, currently only the A95 can accept a wide-angle (WA) lens. INON have developed an UWL100 28AD specifically designed for cameras like the S60 that have a 28 mm native lens. But this lens is not scheduled for release until May 2005. In the mean time you will need to do macro or (not very) wide angle Most people reckon that it's good to start off doing macro anyway (easier to get good results quickly) and then move to WA once you get more confident/skilled.

 

So in summary...both these cameras are a good choice for UW, but the S60 is better in a number of areas and will probably serve you better in the longer term if you get into UW photography.

 

FWIW you might also consider the Fujifilm F810 which is slightly less expensive and is a popular camera to house. Advantages of the F810 over the Canon are (slightly higher) resolution, RAW file handling, low light AF, ability to attach wide lens available now (INON 105AD). Advantages of the S60 over the F810 are battery life, cheaper/larger storage media available and ability to use S-TTL (fully auto) with INON D2000 strobe. The F810 can only do "external auto flash" where the strobe is working independently of the camera (may not be as accurate under some circumstances).

 

HTH

[tie 0]

I don't have any real insights here. They have similar focus speed and shutter lag. The S60 has RAW (unlike A series) and a wider lens (28 versus 38mm effective).

 

Here's a side-by-side comparison, but they do seem rather similar.

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Wow guys thanks for the fast (and HELPFUL!) response. I'm gonna look into the FujiFilm f810. I also got to thinking...is there an Olympus model camera that maybe is a few years old that has dropped into the price range of these cameras (but performes as well underwater)? People seem to like those underwater but mostly the fancy $$$ ones.

[anthp 0]

I also got to thinking...is there an Olympus model camera that maybe is a few years old that has dropped into the price range of these cameras (but performes as well underwater)?  People seem to like those underwater but mostly the fancy $$$ ones.

 

The C5050 was extremely popular, but then got replaced by the 5060 which was NOT popular for a variety of reasons (including the oly housing being notoriously unreliable). If you can pick up a 5050 from someone dumping it in favour of an SLR that might be a good option. Only thing is, you probably won't save a whole lot over an equiv Canon/Fuji and you won't have a warranty :?

 

Might be ok if you get a good price - anyone here selling

[derway 2]

Both A95 and S60 have Aperture, and Shutter priority, and manual exposure.

 

The S60's 28mm wide end will be MUCH better underwater than the 38mm on the A95!!

 

Don

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

As much as people like the 5050 i think it's pretty much above my range. The Fuji F810 sure look cool. I was wondering how the Canon G2 would stack up against the Fuji and the S60? It has RAW and (i think) manual settings. Anyone use these underwater?

 

Thanks!

 

Chris

 

Edit: Unfortunately Canon doesn't seem to make a housing for it so it would have to be the fancy Ikelite one for twice the price of the camera itself.

[dmoss 0]

Edit: Unfortunately Canon doesn't seem to make a housing for it so it would have to be the fancy Ikelite one for twice the price of the camera itself.

 

 

Welcome to the world of Underwater Photography.....

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Welcome to the world of Underwater Photography.....

 

Heh yeah that's what i figured the answer was gonna be. So i'm getting pretty sold on the Fuji. Was just wondering if anyone knew any good online places where refurbished or used FujiFilm cameras can be found? Figure i'll ask here first since i want someplace with a good reputation if i'm gonna buy less than brand new.

[derway 2]

I used a G2 for several years. See my pbase site, for some shots.

 

I always shot raw. The real frustration was the poor autofocus in dim light, and low contrast. Even with a focus assist light bright enough to see in the pictures, sooooo many times I had the perfect shot lined up, with a rare fish, and it won't focus, and the fish is moving and it won't focus, and the shot is gone, and the camera says "Ready when you are, CB..."

 

This is not unique to the G2. The oly's are at least as bad, and have worst final shutter lags.

 

I doubt the A95 or S60 are much better.

 

The Pro1 is supposed to be excellent, now with the new firmware, but is a bit out of your price range.

 

I don't have any experience with the fuji.

 

The Sony's have killer autofocus. And some of the smaller ones, Sony makes cheap housings for. The P150 or P200 have manual exposure mode, which is great for use with underwater strobe.

 

The sony V3 would be even better, but again up in price range and Ike the only housing..

 

GOod luck!

 

Don

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

How about the s70? It seems like people like that one. Similar price to the Fuji once you factor in the XD card for the Fuji. The biggest thing i've heard is the Fuji has better low light focus. That seems pretty important underwater (especially where i am with only 10-15' vis alot so it can get dark). Anyone have feelings about the s70 over the fuji (or vice versa)?

[tie 0]

How about the s70?  It seems like people like that one.  Similar price to the Fuji once you factor in the XD card for the Fuji.  The biggest thing i've heard is the Fuji has better low light focus.  That seems pretty important underwater (especially where i am with only 10-15' vis alot so it can get dark).  Anyone have feelings about the s70 over the fuji (or vice versa)?

 

The S70 fits 137 6MP RAW images on a 1GB CompactFlash card (link). The Fuji F810 fits 39 12MP RAW images on a 512MB XD card (link). 512MB XD cards cost the same as 1GB CompactFlash cards. XD memory is a big liability.

 

The F810 I think has better controls than the S70, which is important underwater. I don't know if the better low-light focus still applies underwater, since it is achieved using a focus-assist light. ?

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Yeah the XD cards are kinda a drag. Battery doesn't sound great on the Fuji either. People seem to really like it though and it sounds like it performs pretty well underwater. The prices are similar and the S70 might have an even cheaper housing than the F810. I really just am looking for the one that tends to perform best underwater. I can live with battery and weird storage media

[derway 2]

If you can find a used G2, I've got a used housing for it...

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

If you can find a used G2, I've got a used housing for it...

 

PM sent

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Anyone know which INON lense mount is for the Fuji F810 housing? I think the housing is WPFX701. I've poked around the INON site but haven't found any mention of Fuji. Anyone point me in the right direction?

[derway 2]

Hey Chris.

 

Just was reading the info I could find on the f810, to see if it might do for me...

 

Looks like the raw mode is useless, so far, since the raw converter gives you no adjustments, and no image quality increase.

 

So, if you want to give up raw mode, the sony p150 kicks butt, in terms of AF.

 

Otherwise, it's back to canon, with great image, great raw, but annoying AF.

 

Sigh...

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

I thought i'd read that the adobe photoshop RAW program thing now "unofficially supports" the F810. I'll look for the info i found.

 

EDIT:

 

http://www.wetpixel.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic...ight-f810.phtml

 

"The new version of ACR2.4 does appear to "unofficially" support the F810, but the one user on the Adobe Forum doesn't seem very happy."

 

Last post on the page. Doesn't sound great but maybe it's improving? I must admit i haven't looked at Sony's much since they don't do RAW. And i'm really only interested in RAW since it sounds like it would help even beginners. Anyone with experience with the Fuji think the RAW software makes the RAW capability moot?

 

Chris

[anthp 0]

Hi again Chris,

 

I now have the Fuji F810 and have successfully used ACR2.4 to convert several hundred topside images (haven't taken it diving yet - hopefully this w'end).

 

If you are worried about RAW conversion - don't be. I haven't bothered to even try the Fuji software.

 

Battery life is better than I expected. I can easily fill a 512 MB using flash for each shot and still have life left to download. I haven't tried to push it by shooting 2 cards worth, but I wouldn't be surprised if it worked.

 

Also regarding the memory limitation, it may only be temporary... This Press Release indicates that you'll only have to wait til April for a 1GB card. Beyond that, they are indicating capacity up to 8GB "in the near future" whenever that is? :?

 

Finally, regarding low light AF - it works very well and I have only had it struggle in situations where my F80 struggles (same AF module as the D70). In short - it is very good. I use the F810 with the focus light switched off.

 

Oh.. one last thing - picture quality is remarkable and I'm seriously considering getting one for myself (the one I'm using was purchased for a friend). Also, I'd be surprised if you can source a refurb model given that this camera is less than 6 mo old.

[anthp 0]

Ahhh, looks like I forgot to answer your question on which lens adaptor to get.

 

I found (and purchased) mine on Yuzo's website. Follow the link to "Lenses" then "Bayonet Mounted Lenses" then scroll down to adaptors - it is called the INON AD Lens adapter FUJI FX-701.

 

HTH

[anthp 0]

Here is a link to it on the inonamerica page.

[Monkey_Knife_Fight 0]

Cool thanks for the first-hand report! Glad adobe can pick up where fuji software fell short. I wasn't too worried about battery...mostly about RAW since i could go for a canon A-series or sony for less money without RAW. I have faith the software can catch up with the hardware.

 

Thanks for the info on the lense adapter. Being in the US i'll have to track down a closer store...but any kind of lense is in the future for me. Gonna have to buy everything one at a time Camera first then housing...that'll at least give me a starting point. Looking to buy my camera (Fuji right now but who knows? ) after my next paycheck. I'm gonna have to get the hang of it and probably wait for gentler weather before i would take it underwater anyway so that will give my time to get my housing.

 

Chris

[anthp 0]

I'm sure Ryan Canon at Reef Photo Video could supply you with one. Just click the link near the top RHS of the page...

[derway 2]

Hi Chris.

 

Actually, both the sony f828 and v3 do raw. They just do it fairly slowly - like 12 second cycle times.

 

The canon G series and Pro1 have a bit of buffering, so while their total throughput is no faster, they can shoot 4-5 shots in raw, at a couple seconds each, before having a longer pause to make more room in the buffer.

 

Don

[anthp 0]

Chris and Don....

As much as people like the 5050 i think it's pretty much above my range

I assume this means price range...so

both the sony f828 and v3 do raw

Probably puts the Sonys and G-series Canons in the same category - they do look like nice cameras to swim with though

The Fuji writes a RAW file in 5 seconds which seems reasonable for a P&S. Could be quicker though I guess.