Nikon D70, D2X, or something else

[talahaski 0]

Hi,

 

I'm trying to get some information on what I need, and some basic advice to start out taking UW photos.

 

Excect for trying out one of those disposable underwater cameras during snorkling, I have not done any real UW photography yet. I also don't dive as often as I would like too, perhaps 3-4 trips a year where I would dive twice a day during the week vacation and some additional weekend dives during the summer.

 

I do take a lot of normal digital photos (not UW), at least a couple hundred a month or more.

 

I currently have a Sony DFC-F707. The camera is getting old and I'm ready to replace it with something much better. It has served me well though, but here are some things I really did not like.

 

The camera, having the 10x attached lens is very bulky.

Additional lens don't work very well as the camera is not really made for this.

The zoom is nice, but I would like to be able to attach much better zoom lens.

The response time can be a bit slow when snapping the image, sometime resulting in me losing the picture if I'm taking an action shot.

The focus is not that great for action shots, but was very nice for stills.

The limit of 3 burst shots is not enough, I tried taking shots of somebody driving into a pool and 3 quick shots just does not cover the action.

 

I would like to buy a new camera that will work for both normal use above water stills and action shots, along with underwater use. I definitlly want a SLR, something with with very fast response and good auto focus. It also should allow me to buy other good lens.

 

Can anybody help me with

 

1. Telling me exactly what pieces I need for UW photography. Such as camera and housing and what each pieces function/role is.

 

2. Recommend a camera, lens and other item I will need.

 

I'm willing to invest some money into this, but also don't want to go overboard. I know that for the camera itself, I definitlly want a very good camera since I will use it more than just diving.

 

I have been looking at both the Nikon D70 and D2X. I think the D70 would be good enough for my diving needs since I don't dive that much, but I'm not sure if it is enough of a upgrade from my current camera to handle my above water needs and make it worth the investment. On the other hand, the D2X is a very nice camera and I would love to buy it, but it might be overkill for me.

 

So, do I

1. keep my Sony for another year and don't bother investing in a UW housing. (means no UW photos for me)

2. Buy a UW housing for my current Sony even though I really want something better. Then upgrade later.

3. Buy a D70 and invest in lens and go with a UW housing, then upgrade in a few years to a D2X or something better.

4. Take the full plunge and buy the D2X and UW housing and lens and everything else I need. Might need to take out a loan!

 

Any help is appreciated here.

[Marjo 8]

In my opinion it would be a bit insane to jump from P&S on land to a D2X + all the gear you will need for uw.... What if you find you really don'y like spending hundreds of hours in the water waiting pateiently for that nudi to crawl slowly into right position or that shrimp to peek out fron the anemone. It's one of those things that you might love above all else of get highly madly frustrated at... My advice would be to go the less expensive route first (which by all means is in no way inexpensive! Any SLR + housing + arms + strobes + ports combo is going to cost you several thousand bucks...). If you wantt o go the Nikon route, and you are sure you want to start off UW photograhy with a SLR, why not start with a new D70 or even a used D100 , ike housing or fantasea housing, one good WA strobe... unless you are independently wealthy or recently won the lottery, then by all means, do for the D2X in a seacam housing Starting off with a really good P&S setup is also not a bad idea until you know that this is really a hobby you like so much that you want to pour a lot of $$$ into it. My 2 cents.

[anthp 0]

Hi talahaski and welcome to wetpixel.

 

You've already done some good research and figured out some useful options. I can't help you with where to try out a D2X unless you're planning a trip downunder any time soon. In terms of your other questions, I'll have a go...

1.  keep my Sony for another year and don't bother investing in a UW housing.  (means no UW photos for me)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would keep the Sony, but if you want to take UW photos, you'll probably want a housing

 

2.  Buy a UW housing for my current Sony even though I really want something better.  Then upgrade later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I definately would NOT buy a housing for the Sony. You'd be throwing money away unless someone is prepared to sell you a S/H housing for $100 or so.

 

3.  Buy a D70 and invest in lens and go with a UW housing, then upgrade in a few years to a D2X or something better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like a reasonably sensible option.

 

4.  Take the full plunge and buy the D2X and UW housing and lens and everything else I need.  Might need to take out a loan!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, if you've got the money - why not!

 

A very similar question has been discussed in another thread. Basically it comes down to a couple of things. What do you want to do with the pictures. Do you really need the extra resolution/speed that the D2x offers? Do you think you've got enough experience taking UW photographs to take advantage of these features?

 

If the answer to some of these questions is yes, and you're prepared to make the investment, then maybe the D2X is worth it for you. Otherwise, you might find that the D70s is a useful and very capable step into the game. Just take a look at what some other photographers on wetpixel are achieving with a D70 (eg. kdietz) and see what you think.

 

You can almost guarantee it will be streets ahead of your 707 (particularly when shot in RAW) and it is a great setup UW. My suggestion would be to save the money you might have dumped on a D2X and get a few different lenses for the D70 and perhaps a second strobe.

 

You might consider the following setup:

• D70s
  
• Housing of choice. Ikelite offers an inexpensive TTL housing which might be useful. Perhaps see if you can handle some housings before deciding. Nexus with a Heinrich's converter is also a good option
  
• Nikon 18-70 (great for topside)
  
• Nikon 60 mm
  
• Sigma 15 FE or Nikon 10.5
  
• Ike DS125 or Inon Z220
  

If you've got money spare, get a second strobe and maybe a Nikon 105 and 12-24. You might also consider a second body, both as flood insurance on a holiday and also to use as a topside camera when your other one is housed.

[anthp 0]

In my opinion it would be a bit insane to jump from P&S on land to a D2X + all the gear you will need for uw....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, why did I spend all that time composing the post above , when I could have just agreed with Marjo's beautifully succinct rationale.

[Marjo 8]

Well, I see my post was a bit blunt.. that wan't the intended effect.. maybe thinking processes fogged by working 16 hrs straight and still counting. Oh and just realizing how much $$$ has sunk into the ocean in the last 18 months even if I am one of those with "only cheap gear". Anyhow, I agree with all of the above. Boy, actually I somehow wish that I WOULD have stared out with a D1SMkII in a Subal or Seacam and a fulls set of L lenses. And kept driving my old practical islandcar instead of the boring new shiny car which you cannot drive down into the bushes at the beach. Only the hubby wouldn't agree...

[talahaski 0]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The more I think about it, the more I am moving towards the D70 or D70s. The only reason I am still thinking about the D2X is for topside. Whatever setup I use, I will most likely use the camera for bot UW and topside. And I do take a lot of topside pictures.

 

I heard there is really not much difference between the D70 and the D70s. Same body except a larger viewfinder?

 

 

If I invest in some of the other components, how re-usable are they if in the future I move to the D2X. For example the Strobes, Lenses, Ports, Housing Arms? I know the housing would be useless, but I'm not sure about all the other parts.

 

Do the Arms and Ports normally come with the housing? How does that work?

 

 

You mentioned the Ike DS125 or Inon Z220, are these lenses?

 

 

One last question. What do you guys do about insurance in case your setup floods? Does the housing manufacturer cover the cost of camera if its a defect in the housing? What if it turns out to be user error? Being new to this, I'd hate to go out on my first dive with a new setup and have it flood and end up losing all the money I put into it.

 

 

Thanks again for replying. I'm been reading up on this forum for a few days now and finally decided to register and make my post.

[anthp 0]

I heard there is really not much difference between the D70 and the D70s.  Same body except a larger viewfinder?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ummm, nope. There is no difference between the viewfinders of the D70 and the D70s. The LCD on the back of the D70s is slightly larger, perhaps that is what you were thinking of.

 

If I invest in some of the other components, how re-usable are they if in the future I move to the D2X.  For example the Strobes, Lenses, Ports, Housing Arms?  I know the housing would be useless, but I'm not sure about all the other parts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just as you thought. Strobes, lenses, ports and housing arms are reusable (provided you stick with the same housing manufacturer). Strobes and arms are almost always reusable regardless of housing type.

 

Do the Arms and Ports normally come with the housing?  How does that work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Arms and ports are generally sold separately. You choose ports based on the lenses you want to dive and you choose arms based on how much you are prepared to spend. Many people are happiest with ULCS or TLC arms, but other's are comfortable with more basic Ikelite arms. Generally you are better off with two straight arm sections with "elbows" joining the arms together and to the housing and strobe (three joins altogether).

 

You mentioned the Ike DS125 or Inon Z220, are these lenses?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are strobes or underwater flashes. You will want at least one to get colourful UW shots.

 

One last question.  What do you guys do about insurance in case your setup floods?  Does the housing manufacturer cover the cost of camera if its a defect in the housing? I'm been reading up on this forum for a few days now and finally decided to register and make my post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have a go at using the search button at the top of the page. There is an official insurance thread here.

[talahaski 0]

Thanks again.

 

You really have helped me a lot!

[anthp 0]

No worries.

 

Look forward to hearing what you decide to select and to seeing your first pictures!

[talahaski 0]

ok, I bought the camera and some lenses.

 

Went with the Nikon D70. It came with a 18-70mm lens.

 

I also bought the store warrentee. They had a 3 year warrentee that will repair/replace the camera no matter if its user error or not. It even specified on the contract that it would cover damage due to fresh water, salt-water and murky water. Not sure If I really needed this since I might need to go with insurance anyway to cover the rest of the setup. It also included once a year cleaning/mant of the camera.

 

I know I could have got the camera cheaper online, but I bought it from a retailer for a couple reasons. I have spoken to the salesperson about 3 seperate times so far and each time I took up well over a half-hour of his dedicated time. I was able to handle and check out the camera, took test pictures, and checked out the lenses. If I was more knoledgable about the camera, I might have bought it online, but since this is my first SLR I think it was better to buy from a retailer. They also offer a few extras like free classes, I can bring in the camera anytime to get questions answered and such.

 

I also got a 60mm and the 10.5 lens, and a 1g card. Also ordered a 4gig card since they were out of them.

 

I am also thinking of getting a 70-300mm lens for topside use.

 

My next step is to look into the housing, strobes, and arms.

 

I'll update this as I continue getting the equipment together. For now I'll do some test topside photos with it.

 

I have a dive coming up Aug 7, but I don't think it will be possible to get the rest of the equipment in time for that dive. Besides, I don't want to rush in the water the first time, I want to spend time testing out the housing first. Perhaps I'll take it to a friends pool when I get everything.

[Viz'art 24]

Sound's like your a pretty common senses person, I consider this a very good quality, services is always a plus, and having somebody close that can answer your question well... Nice choice of lenses by the way Well, now you have a challenge, you will not be able to blame your equipment anymore welcome to the club.

[talahaski 0]

Thanks Viz'art.

 

Can I blame it on the shark that bumped me from behind? Got to be some good scapegoat you guys use.

[Viz'art 24]

aargh! always the shark's fault,

 

As long as he was not testing to see if you taste like chicken

[anthp 0]

Wow!

 

Cool when someone takes your advice on board - excellent choice talahaski!

 

Very good idea buying the gear from a local store - it is sometimes very handy to have that local support. Also, very good idea to test the gear in a pool first. I would recommend taking the empty housing for a "dive" in the pool first, just to make sure you've got the assembly techniques right. Remember that even the tiniest bit of fluff across an o-ring can cause a flood. You might also want to have a bit of a practice with the camera in the pool before you go for a dive. The first dive with a camera is always a bit of an effort - so much to think about.

 

Are you planning on getting any strobes?

 

Oh and yeah - blame it on the shark/whale/kelp that knocked you from behind

[anthp 0]

Also with the topside lens... I would recommend the 70-300ED rather than the G version, unless you are planning on shooting between f8-11 all the time.

[Viz'art 24]

I agree with Anthony on the lens, the ED version is consistent in contruction and optical quality to your 18-70, while the G version is at par to the plastic 18-55 which i am happy to note, you didn't get, lenses are the first barrier in photography, if you have a cheap lens up front, then its not going to get better behind it.

[talahaski 0]

hmm, I'm trying to look into places where I can get housing. I might go with the Ike but I want to check out some others.

 

Anybody know any good US sites that sell housings for the D70. I tried looking for Nexus housings, but most of the sites I found were not in the US, or they did not list the price.

[talahaski 0]

Ok, I have another question. Are the strobes powered by the camera battery, or do they have thier own power. I'm concerned that the strobes will drain the camera battery too fast.

 

I still have some research and learning to do on the strobes, ports, and domes I think.

[Arnon_Ayal 1]

Ok, I have another question.  Are the strobes powered by the camera battery, or do they have thier own power.  I'm concerned that the strobes will drain the camera battery too fast.

 

I still have some research and learning to do on the strobes, ports, and domes I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every strobe has its own power supply.

The only connection between the camera & the strobe is the electrical cord that controls the strobe.

[talahaski 0]

Answered my own question about the power for strobes. The do indeed come with thier own battery. At least the Ike DS-125 does.

 

Do people find a real need to dive with 2 strobes? What is the benifit/use? Do they both fire to increase the lighting, or is the second one just a backup? If they both fire, I would guess you would only really need a second light for deep dives, night dives, or cave dives where the natural lighting is much less.

 

 

I'm still working on finding a good housing setup. I'm kind of limited in my reseach right now though. For some reason my office firewall is blocking Ike's website.

 

 

Once I work out the housing, I still have some questions/concerns lens. Will any of my lenses work, or do I need to buy a different port for each lens. I think the 10.5 FE will be a good lens to dive with to start out. I've seen some pictures taken with that setup and they look good.

 

What is the difference with using a flat port or a dome port?

[talahaski 0]

Thanks Arnon_Ayal, you answered while I was typing in my last reply.

[Viz'art 24]

“What is the difference with using a flat port or a dome port?â€

 

1) A dome port retain the angle of view of your lens, basically your nice wide angle doesn’t loose any coverage.

 

2) The rays of light converge to a common central point, making for a better images. With a flat port the central part is closer than the edge resulting in soft/out of focus corners.

 

3) So why use a flat port, well your macro lens will benefit from a 25% magnification bonus due to the refraction, (remember your mask, everything is bigger) and, the angle of view is quite narrower on a macro lens so its not really affected that much from the center to side syndrome, add to this the fact that you use those lenses at f8 or smaller and what was a problem with a wide angle become a solution for a macro lens.

 

There is two popular system for ports, one way is using a different port for every lenses and the other is using only two port, one dome for wide angle, one flat for macro and uses extension rings for switching between the differents lenses that you have or might purchase later.

 

Two flashes: the decision to have or have not two flashes come naturally after shooting for a while, but its not obligatory by all mean to have two flashes in the beginning, I would recommend starting with one and master the technique before getting a second unit, one thing you should do is to get a double connector on the housing right away, it is more practical and economical to have two independent cable, if you have a cable failure you can always use one flash, with Y cable, you break one, well you break both.

 

Here is two features on domes optic.

 

http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/proper-dome...-and-placement/

 

http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/dome-theory/

 

Regards.

[jenkinsd 0]

Here are some points from the D70, D2X and Canon 20D

I was asking the same questions a few weeks ago, D70, D2x or Canon ID Mark II. after intensive looking, the overall best value was the Canon 20D.

 

I have the 20D, and not had the chance to take it UW yet, but it is very good above the see.

 

D2X is a 12MP

5 FPS

11 Point Auto Focus

37ms Shutter Lag

Underwater Housing €3000

100-800 (Could be better is dark lit situations)

 

D70 Body Only

6.1 MP

3FPS

5 Point Autofocus

Shutter speeds up to 8000/sec (To quick for water)

ISO 200 – 1600

Underwater Housing is about €1000 I think

 

Caon 20D

8.2MP

5 FPS

9 Point Autofocus

Shutter speeds up to 8000/sec (To quick for water)

ISO 100-1600 plus boost to 3200

€1200 for UW housing

[talahaski 0]

Thanks Viz'art.

 

I did read those articles before, but to be honest, the only confused me more. I got lost in all the technical details and really only wanted a simplified answer. I hope I don't have to work all that math out myself.

 

Just want to know what ports to get for best image and what diop setting to use. I think I'll learn the other stuff in time as I gain more experience. You explaination helps me, so now I know that I will most likely want both a flat port for the 60mm and a dome port for the 10.5 FE.

 

I really appreciate everybody's help here, this really is a great forum with a lot of helpfull people. I'm learning a lot, but still have a lot more to go.

 

I'm wondering If I should continue in this thread so that this thread will develope and show my progress, or If I should start making seperate post?

[Viz'art 24]

Stick to the same post so people will see where you come from and where you are going.

 

A good exercise before getting a u/w system is to take a look at the type of image you wish to capture and see if the system adapt to your need. do you like split shots, ultra macro, what are the dream lenses in your mind, because you dont have them now doesn't mean you wont be getting them. underwater photographer have a very effective way of convincing themselves that they need something so never say never. and don't be shy to ask question about optics. it's complex in theory but fairly simple in practise and there is quite a bunch of member very generously knowledgeable on this site.