Panasonic AG-HVX200 - variable frame rate, etc.

[echeng 0]

I'm curious as to what hard-core HD people out there think of the Panasonic AG-HVX200. Specifically, it seems that its 100mbps HD rate should kick Sony's 25mbps HD rate's butt in quality, and things like variable frame rate (4-60fps) at 720p will allow really cool, high-quality time-lapse and slow-motion effects.

 

Anyone out there going to do a housing?

[Drew 0]

Sir Eric

Big problem is the media. It will not shoot HD to tape as far as I can see from the specs. You'd need a 4GB P2 card at $1750 a piece and that's only for 40 mins if you have 2.

The other problem is that it will have limited electronic controls due to the lack of lanc and the lack of support for the pana remote... maybe someone will make a housing for the remote?

Otherwise form factorwise I think it kicks the Sony FX/Z1. It's great for Indie films and topside stuff... u/w applications will be limited which is a pity because it can shoot 30P!!!

[NickJ 2]

From my supplier:

 

With regards to the Panasonic HVX200, Amphibico has not said anything about a housing but Gates is definitely developing one for the first quarter of 2006.

[Drew 0]

Amphibico told me at DEMA they had no plans for the Pana. SeaLux of germany has muttered a possible wip housing. I think they are all waiting for the camera, which is waiting list only now. I think Pana has a hit on their hands.

[Nick Hope 151]

It's also in separate PAL and NTSC versions, so although it can shoot 24p and 30p, in this respect it's less flexible than the Sony Z1 which can do both PAL and NTSC. This is relevant if you're hoping to be hired for shoots and the producer could come from either PAL-land or NTSC-land.

 

Nick

[DeanB 19]

Wait for it...wait for it..

 

Go, GO Drew..!!!!

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[Mike L 0]

Gates definitely has a housing coming out. It is scheduled to begin shipping late March/early April. We have a rental HVX system coming in with a Gates housing and once I get the camera and housing out in the water, I will have more information to post.

 

The problem right now is cameras. Panasonic has them trickling in to their suppliers which is making them very hard to get. A number of the retailers for the HVX have backorders months long. My supplier receives two at a time, and they only come in periodically. They have over 100 on order, all of which are sold!

[Drew 0]

Well the P2 4GB is "only" $750 and the 8GB about $2k. Firestor has the demo going but it's BIG! Some people are having reliability problems with P2 transfer. Until P2 24GB comes out, the HVX is generally a DV camera with limited HD capability. Still 1080P from IE1394 is nothing to sneeze at, albeit from a lowly "960 x 540" CCD sensor.

[Drew 0]

For those interested, here's a few clips with HVX200 in 60fps at 720P.

*WARNING These are really big files* you will need Quicktime 7 to view them.

Not much use for u/w except in behavior shots like predation and fast action like a gannet diving.

 

Don't mind the guns, but the clip is amazing!

 

As a comparison, here is slo mo stuff from a XLH1, download the beachball file:

 

XL-H1 Beach ball

[CamDiver 5]

OK, so people want to house this puppy. Get ready to pay. Just got the prices thru from Gates.

 

Here's a nice shopping list:

 

Panasonic AG-HVX200 - $8795 - Includes 2 x 8Gb P2 cards (B&H)

Gates Housing - $6,860.00 - Oh by the way this housing COMES WITH NO PORTS (Normal????)

Minimum port option $450 - standard port or flat port from Gates

Century Optics SWA Port - $4482

Marshall 7" Ext. Monitor - $1300

Housing for ext monitor - Read my post regarding this item - Gates price to develop - $15,000

Extreme Exposure HMI lighting (in fo a penny in for a pound) $4500

P2 Store for downloading P2 data - $1200

 

This is a very conservative list and doesn't include any editing hard/softwares, editing monitors etc etc.

 

Add it all up and ......... Hmmmmmm $42,587 to get this camera in the water.

The points:

People looking to take this camera in the water require more than just the camera and housing to start producing. Storage is a major factor and will mean a LOT of external HDD for just the backing up of archives / footage.

 

The peripheral machinery requirements to create a satisfactory workflow are huge. P2 stores, FireStores, Cineporters, Editing soft and hardwares etc etc.

 

I have never bought a Gates housing before but will probably end up with their offering for this camera as they seem to be the only manufacturer at the moment producing a unit. Therefore I can't say much as to why they don't offer a port option with the housing "as is". Is this how they normally sell their products?

 

The lack of available housings for the external monitor are disturbing. Why with so many manufacturing companies now catering to house the newest and latest HD(V) cameras are there no real possibilities for a true HD monitor and housing? Critical issues like focus etc are essential with these cameras especially in composition etc. Regular SD monitors just won't offer the required resolution for this. Forget Focus Assist options on an SD monitor! It seems everyone wants to get housings out for clients making the move to HD(V) options but only up to a certain stage. "Yeah you can take the camera underwater but if you want to use it in anyway slightly resembling professional then you're gonna pay buddy"!!!! (You may sense my underlying frustration, especially when relating to this point)!!!

 

This message is not intended to put anyone off dipping this camera in the wet stuff but just to show the true cold facts of the money end of things. Better have your clients lined up ...... oh just as long as it's not The Discovery Channel! You think 'coz you part with 40 large you're gonna get big name clients? Think again.........the lowdown on HD(V) content for HD programming as per DCI.

 

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=51541

 

CamDiver

[DeanB 19]

Hi mark,

 

Good to hear from you on wetpix at long last...

 

Good review, a bit out of my price range so I'm not sweating..Though Drew's been championing this baby for a while.

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

[CamDiver 5]

Hi Dean, How's life?

 

Yeah, it's a big pill to swallow. I am seriously looking to take this camera down, along with my business too if it doesn't pay off!!! The whole trip around importing the media is still a bit of a sore point but in the end I think solid state camera and this kind of recording format P2 etc will become the norm.

 

I really don't give a crap about channels already stating their decisions not to use footage content of more than 17.648720928436458386% of the program etc etc. If you've got the footage of a whale shark having a baby shot on a cell phone that had been wrapped in shrink wrap for chrissakes then everyone's gonna want it. It doesn't matter at those times what the recording format was. If it's new and unique the original format goes out the window.

 

The BBC used this camera to cover the Olympics. A looooong and ever increasing list of BIG Filmmakers, I mean Hollywood types, are using this camera. Movies have been shot on it and partial content has been used for cutaway clips in recent big budget productions.

 

I think at the end of the day it may be a challenge to work with this camera in the water but the resulting images will be worth the work. I'm certainly looking to take the risk anyway. If it works it works if it doesn't then I'll be expecting a job when you become the head of the BBC NHU!!!!

 

Cheers mate,

Mark.

[Drew 0]

Mark, it's standard practice to uprez to HD CAM. So your final edit on your program will be in HDCAM or Varicam.

What they are saying is they want minimum DVCPro 50 for SD and DVC PRo 100 for uprez to HDCAM.

They want an approved post production path (which I'm sure any PPH can provide). If you shoot in DVCPro HD you can either down rez to DVCPro50/100 or uprez to HDCAM (so long as the method is approved).

If you are talking about clips for productions then it's up to the producers to uprez, you don't have to worry about what media you record in. DVC Pro HD is 100mb/s anyhow. So they aren't doing anything new.

And if you look at BBC, DCI and AP, there are plenty of SD uprezzed programming. So it's not etched in stone. Show them the PP path and all should be well.

[CamDiver 5]

Drew,

Thanks for the info. I was pretty much aware of the requirement for uprezzing to HD etc.

 

On another note seeing as you have already taken this camera down could you do me a favor and either post here or send to me at my office email - photoshop@fishnfins.com - some pre post screen grabs / stills from your tests with the prototype housing?

 

In advance, thanks.

Mark.

[Nick Hope 151]

Century Optics SWA Port - $4482

Mark, I take it that's for surface use only?

 

Are you considering the Fathom SWP44 port for underwater? I certainly am for their FX1/Z1 housing.

 

Nick

[CamDiver 5]

Hi guys,

My fault, typo regarding the lens. I was actually reffering to the SWP44 Fathom Imaging Super Wide Angle Port @ $4482.

 

I have been intending to look at taking the HVX200 on as a stock filming camera as the recording times currently available using 2 of the 8Gb P2 cards is limiting to say the least. I do believe this technology to be the way to go for the future. Solid state camera, tapeless work flow etc etc. However with it being a relatively new and still not completely compatible with many editing systems I it may be prudent to sit back and wait for the next generation, which at the rate the manufacturers are pumping out camera these days won't be that long. By the time a second generation of this camera hits us the bugs will be worked out, the NLE's will be compliant and I'm sure the peripherals will have dropped, as will P2 storage, in price and availability. It is still hard for buyers to find P2 cards, FireStores and Cineporters are still not officially released and as yet there is no real solution regarding suitable field (u/w) monitors etc.

 

So I may be looking to wait a short while. It would be a massive expense to get this thing down and working bearing in mind it also has to pay for itself.

 

Cheers for all the snippets regarding monitors.

 

Mark.

[MikeVeitch 0]

Mark... good thinkin! I would wait....

[CamDiver 5]

Hi Mike,

How's the weather across the pond there? He're sucks BIG time. No diving today so a good chance to get things arranged in the office.

 

Yeah, really wanted to think this puppy wet would produce some great stuff but everything way too much in its infancy at the mo.

 

I'll get back to you today re: re:PS

 

All sounds good and have some potentially attractive ideas.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Nick Hope 151]

Mark I'm interested in your decision making process as I'm in a similar position to you at the moment. I also became very interested in the HVX200 but turned against it for similar reasons to you and I'm pretty much set again on going for the Z1 in Gates housing now.

 

Have you considered the Z1? If you've rejected it then for what reasons?

 

Nick

[Drew 0]

Nick

It's called 1080P at 2-60fps. Really the only reason why the HVX is so sought after by filmmakers. Small form factor to boot. Guerilla film making and also for u/w.

Yes the CCD is only 960 x 540.

[Nick Hope 151]

I thought at 60fps progressive you were limited to 720, not 1080?

 

I'm just thinking that in the light of the fact that HVX200 footage needs to be uprezzed anyway for the likes of BBC, Nat Geo, Discovery, you'd be pretty much as well off uprezzing footage from a Z1. Surely unless you're doing lots of slo-mo stuff, the result is not much different?

 

I'm all for finding a way to get a more expensive camera, within reason, but only if it would truly put me into another bracket in terms of getting hired and in my footage getting licensed.

 

Nick

[CamDiver 5]

Hi Nick,

Well basically its down to quite a few things. The whole P2 workflow, whilst on paper seems the perfect solution, is also a very pricey way to go. There are a lot of equipment considerations and in a business such as this as you're very aware equipment choices are paramount to performance and efficiency.

 

The camera is not in any way proven, especially underwater. Sure we've seen clips posted all over the web of ideal condition set ups by experienced filmmakers etc but this is not a camera for the newbie. A lot of people on different forums have obviously bought this camera and then you start getting the "how do I turn it on" posts?? A lot of cash to throw down in anyone's book for what could be a dissastrous learning curve!

 

My main reasons are basically broken down into the differing areas of practicality:

It will not prove practical to take underwater due to shorter recording time offered by the P2 cards. Larger capacity cards will trickle out eventually but at a premium.

Housing options are required that are far and beyond the norm (I think we've all heard my sentiments on that) and are prohibitively expensive.

Price.....ouch!!

Whilst I firmly believe this kind of technology to be the future I also would prefer a while to wait for the format to be more widely accepted in the NLE world. At the moment only a few suites are able to work directly with the media without having to first import and wrap to other format extensions. It all takes time and could be better and less time consuming, if seemless.

 

Give it a while, when the HVX350 hits the world in about two years I'm sure by then everything will be more affordable, the image will be a bit sharper and we'll also have affordable options for taking the baby in the water. Including monitors!!! (enough said)

 

Options:

I have been looking at the Z1. I did hear about certain panning problems as the camera tries to keep up with the motion and compressing to Mpeg2 at the same time. Any feedback by other members on that???? Also the dropped frame issue. Not too sure how ofetn that could happen but wouldn't it be a bummer if halfway through that Manta birthing sequence at the most critical point the camera decided to drop a frame!!! Ouch and also a very expensive glitch. These were the two main problems. Everything else would be acceptable and I am still looking at the camera.

 

I am open in my decisions and as such am sniffing around other options.

 

Cheers to all,

Mark.

[CamDiver 5]

Hi Dan,

Good advice. We pay a lot of money for the equipment to take these cameras down. The cheapest commodity but potentially the most important is the recording media, so why economise on that? Its like buying a Rolls Royce and converting it to diesel to save gas money!!!

 

The panning issue was just a point raised by some filmmakers on other sites. It is the same when people really put any camera under the microscope and disect it pixel by pixel. There will always be purists in any arena where cameras are concerned. I raised the question here merely as a point of reference to see if people have experienced that underwater.

 

Thanks,

Mark.